Elbow contact above the shoulders.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

Elbow moving at the same speed MAY also be Intentional...if the offensive player knows they are there and pivots and puts that elbow on the face anyway, you could certainly call that Int.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Stationary? It's all relative. My little corner of Connecticut is rotating, east to west, at a speed of 700 miles per hour, while we're all on a planet moving at a speed of 67,000 miles per hour around our closest star. Is you head spinning yet? Anybody need any Dramamine?

Well, actually... (physics major, remember! )

Given that the earth is actually only 24,901 miles around, the equator is moving at just over 1037.5 miles per hour.

At 41.6 degrees latitude, you've moving at 74.77980905% of that - or 775.87 mph, just around the center of the earth. So you're moving that fast, sometimes WITH the 66486 mph, sometimes against. Like the car at the end of the spinning arm of the Octupus ride.

If that's not enough, the sun is moving around the galaxy at 514495mph., with our revolutions and rotations sometimes adding, sometimes subtracting.

NOW you need dramamine.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Elbows moving faster than the torso is by definition "excessive." 4-24-8a.

That's (one of the) the problem(s) with the FED interp / wording. Maybe "moving" = "stationary" and "excessive" in one rule <> "excessive" in another.

True. I can just go by what my state director of officials has told me. The problem is the wording of the rule.

[JRutledge]

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

We only need two levels of stationary and excessive.

Which is true by the strict interpretation of the 2012-13 NFHS Point of Emphasis Power Point; however, many local jurisdictions have decided to enforce three levels (stationary, moving, and excessive moving).

To paraphrase the late Rodney King, "Can't we all just do it the same way?".

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In some areas that's not how it is interpreted. See the previous threads.

Someone link to it and then close this, please.

Thank you Bob! I haven't been religiously reading the forum this winter (as I usually do) and haven't caught that nuance. It is true that if you miss a day of the official's forum, you miss a lot.

-Josh

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

Where did this come from?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

I brought this up at a rules meeting. I think if we get them off when the defense is really on the offense, it will help.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

I can't call what didnt' happen in this case. Defenders arms are straight up in the air. I do agree in general the defenders get away with too much contact and calling that would help to avoid these situations. However they really don't happen that much.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Where did this come from?

We were told this in NCAA meetings and videos for a couple of years now to not ignore many fouls which often causes a player to swing their elbows in the first place. It is even something that is often talked about in pre-games in the locker room on how to call these plays.

Peace

[Welpe]

Gotcha, you're talking in a general sense. Thought you had access to some game film that we didn't know about.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I can't call what didnt' happen in this case. Defenders arms are straight up in the air. I do agree in general the defenders get away with too much contact and calling that would help to avoid these situations. However they really don't happen that much.

I did not say make up something, I said call the first foul. Often players react to players being all over them and we ignore those fouls because the player did not lose the ball or we call a held ball after a lot of contact took place. If you call the first foul you likely stop the frustration of throwing their elbows to get away and then you do not have to worry about calling an intentional foul or flagrant as a result. That is all I am saying.

Peace

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well, actually... (physics major, remember! )

Given that the earth is actually only 24,901 miles around, the equator is moving at just over 1037.5 miles per hour.

At 41.6 degrees latitude, you've moving at 74.77980905% of that - or 775.87 mph, just around the center of the earth. So you're moving that fast, sometimes WITH the 66486 mph, sometimes against. Like the car at the end of the spinning arm of the Octupus ride.

If that's not enough, the sun is moving around the galaxy at 514495mph., with our revolutions and rotations sometimes adding, sometimes subtracting.

NOW you need dramamine.

Right when I just finished polishing off a newly perceived personal understanding of False Double Fouls, False Multiple Fouls, and what "...one of the attributes of... " means, I read this . . .
. . . and my head EXPLODED.
Now I've gotta recover to do a tough game tonight.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well, actually... (physics major, remember! )

Given that the earth is actually only 24,901 miles around, the equator is moving at just over 1037.5 miles per hour.

At 41.6 degrees latitude, you've moving at 74.77980905% of that - or 775.87 mph, just around the center of the earth. So you're moving that fast, sometimes WITH the 66486 mph, sometimes against. Like the car at the end of the spinning arm of the Octupus ride.

If that's not enough, the sun is moving around the galaxy at 514495mph., with our revolutions and rotations sometimes adding, sometimes subtracting.

NOW you need dramamine.

So that everyone can comprehend this, could you represent the numbers in furlongs/fortnights?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Elbow moving at the same speed MAY also be Intentional...if the offensive player knows they are there and pivots and puts that elbow on the face anyway, you could certainly call that Int.

That is what I have based on the OP...elbows extended and twisting rapidly. That is an intentional foul.