Contact with elbow

[bseybs32]

A1 has ball and is being closely guarded by B1. A1 tries to clear space by rotating ball from right to left, at shoulder level, and makes contact with their elbow on B1's face. This act is not intentional, would this be a violation or a technical (because of contact)?

[sndevil99]

I usually call it as a violation--exccessive swinging of the elbows. however you have to look at the play and see if there was intent on A1's part of hitting the defensive player. Many time I will only give A1 2 times to wave his elbows and if he does it a third, then that is when I whistle the violation. THat way I hopefully avoid the contact that could occur if he were to just keep going back and forth. My vote:Violation

[ChuckElias]

Just my opinion, but if there's contact (especially to the head), it can't just be a violation. I would probably have a player control foul at least.

This assumes that the player swings the elbows and is not simply pivoting.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Just my opinion, but if there's contact (especially to the head), it can't just be a violation. I would probably have a player control foul at least.

This assumes that the player swings the elbows and is not simply pivoting.

I want to second Chuck's comment. The 'violation' for swinging the elbows was introduced a few years ago, as I remember, as a reduction of the then current technical foul charge, in hopes that, with the reduced charge, officials would call it more often. If there's live ball contact by a swinging elbow, it's at least a personal foul . . .

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Just my opinion, but if there's contact (especially to the head), it can't just be a violation. I would probably have a player control foul at least.

This assumes that the player swings the elbows and is not simply pivoting.

So, if a legal defender got hit in the face with an elbow by a ball handler that is pivoting, you are not calling a foul?

I would.
mick

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by mick

So, if a legal defender got hit in the face with an elbow by a ball handler that is pivoting, you are not calling a foul?

I would.
mick

Agree with you up to one point... see the whole play should determine if it was unacceptable contact.

Not all contact is a foul.

[Ref Daddy]

My outline:

Elbows swinging a) at head level or b) high speed and either having NO CONTACT - Violation

Excessive elbows Swinging - CONTACT MADE - PCF.

[mick]

I no called one tonight.
Post player, ball held high on other side of the lane, made an insignificant look to his left and a guard went to the floor.

Next dead ball, guard comes to me, rubbing his jaw and asked, "Why didn't you call that?" Not begging, not whining.

I told him, "I don't doubt that you got hit, but all I saw was the post guy's back."

I was outa position, ...I guess.
mick

[justacoach]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
My outline:

Elbows swinging a) at head level or b) high speed and either having NO CONTACT - Violation

Excessive elbows Swinging - CONTACT MADE - PCF.

What if contact occurs during action specified in 9-13-3 as not to be considered excessive?

[Edited by justacoach on Feb 7th, 2006 at 10:40 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
So, if a legal defender got hit in the face with an elbow by a ball handler that is pivoting, you are not calling a foul?

I would have to see the play. But my feeling is that if you're playing defense so tight that the guy literally can't turn around (making a legal offensive maneuver) without contacting you, I don't think I can penalize him for that.

And yes, I have no-called exactly this situation. I would also understand if someone disagreed with me on this. I can see it both ways. I just like my way better

[lmeadski]

It is easy to tell when a player is swinging his elbows with intent: foul if contact is made. I have never called a violation on this because if he/she is really swinging the elbows, a defender playing tight enough to get hit WILL get hit, or, backs off and the play continues with no contact. I suppose if a player REGULARLY swung elbows with no contact, I would warn or call a violation to send the message. If a player pivots, ball above his head or chinned, and his elbows clip another player, I do not call a foul or violation.

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by bseybs32
A1 has ball and is being closely guarded by B1. A1 tries to clear space by rotating ball from right to left, at shoulder level, and makes contact with their elbow on B1's face. This act is not intentional, would this be a violation or a technical (because of contact)?

Just to be real clear, the T is no longer an option in this situation. With contact, your choices (other than a no call if you judge it as incidental) are: PCF, intentional foul or flagrant foul.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by lmeadski
It is easy to tell when a player is swinging his elbows with intent: foul if contact is made. I have never called a violation on this because if he/she is really swinging the elbows, a defender playing tight enough to get hit WILL get hit, or, backs off and the play continues with no contact. I suppose if a player REGULARLY swung elbows with no contact, I would warn or call a violation to send the message. If a player pivots, ball above his head or chinned, and his elbows clip another player, I do not call a foul or violation.

Warn?

Do you warn a player who travels? Do you warn a player who commits an over and back?

During high school games, I think most of us tend to use warnings inappropriately, including myself.

If you feel it is a violation, then call it. A borderline situation or your instincts tell you the player might commit an infraction or you weren’t sure you saw what took place illegally, and then I can understand issuing a warning.

[Junker]

In the original post the player was swing their elbows, not intending to contact anyone. My question is what purpose is there of swinging the elbows if not to contact someone and keep them off? It is one thing if a player holds the ball high with their elbows out (fundamentally sound if you ask me) and catches someone with an elbow as they pivot, but if they contact someone with an elbow when they are merely swinging their arms, I have a common foul.

[Junker]

In the original post the player was swing their elbows, not intending to contact anyone. My question is what purpose is there of swinging the elbows if not to contact someone and keep them off? It is incidental contact to me if a player holds the ball high with their elbows out (fundamentally sound if you ask me) and catches someone with an elbow as they pivot, but if they contact someone with an elbow when they are merely swinging their arms, I have a common foul.