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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 06:09pm
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If I have the defender where he needs to be and there's a knee in the face -- that's going to have me shipping it the other way.

If the defender isn't where he's supposed to be, I'm calling a block.

Knee in the face + player going down hurt + player possibly stepping on the defender does not equal "nothing" in my game.
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 07:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
So does JRutledge's statement, "The contact or the action that put the player on the floor mostly took place after the ball was through the hoop" really make any difference in interpreting this play?
No
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
So does JRutledge's statement, "The contact or the action that put the player on the floor mostly took place after the ball was through the hoop" really make any difference in interpreting this play?
Only for people that like to make up their own rules.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm confused about this play, and I'm at work and don't have my books. In the case of a dunker, is the ball dead when it passes through the hoop, or does the ball remain live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor?
I honestly do not care about the ball being dead or that aspect of the play from my point of view. The play by all accounts is over if you feel the defender was not in a LGP and the action did not prevent the dunker from landing properly or be under control and certainly did not prevent the dunk. For me this is simply an issue of advantage, disadvantage after you have determined the actions by the defender were legal or not as it relates to taking a charge. And this play is very, very close and not a slam dunk (pun intended) either way. And I call more charges personally than I bet most people here call them. I did see an angle today on ESPN from a half-court that did not help in determining for me if the defender slid over while the player went airborne. If you deem the defender was in a LGP, I am not even convinced I would call a foul that way either as the defender was not really displaces during the actual action but after the dunk as he has someone under him.

Peace
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I can live with the no call on this as the contact took place mostly after the dunk.
I'm replaying and freezing with my play-cursor at about 5.75 seconds and the ball is still in the shooter's hand and the knee to the jaw/chest has just happened and the defender is already moving backward from the contact.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP View Post
I'm replaying and freezing with my play-cursor at about 5.75 seconds and the ball is still in the shooter's hand and the knee to the jaw/chest has just happened and the defender is already moving backward from the contact.
Is he moving laterally while the player was in the air?

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Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Is he moving laterally while the player was in the air?

Peace
Possibly, but I don't think definitively from the camera's view (defender's teammate is largely blocking the camera's view of the defender's feet). My point was simply that the shooter's knee to the defender, causing the defender to be moved backward and knocked down, happened before the ball was released/was in the basket - and that I don't see any other contact.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP View Post
Possibly, but I don't think definitively from the camera's view (defender's teammate is largely blocking the camera's view of the defender's feet). My point was simply that the shooter's knee to the defender, causing the defender to be moved backward and knocked down, happened before the ball was released/was in the basket - and that I don't see any other contact.
Not disputing the contact with the knee, but the movement of the legs were not unnatural or trying to create contact with the legs to get a foul. I do not equate this like a forearm shove to create space to make a play or get a shot off. It just looks to me from live that the defender slid over. Yes he might have been backing up slightly, but he cannot move into the shooter if he is airborne. As I said it is very close, but even with that contact it is not egregious to warrant an automatic foul from me either way.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I can live with the no call on this as the contact took place mostly after the dunk.
Hmm, don't think you're quite right on that one. Observe the point of contact:





The guy basically takes a knee to the face, which is why he's down for the count after the dunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So to me the contact is mostly incidental as it did not prevent the dunk from happening and the play was basically over.
Full speed, I think the defender is late.

So I have no problem with a no-call - seems cruel on this specific play for the guy to get plowed in the face, get dunked on, AND take the foul
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Last edited by canuckrefguy; Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 04:14pm.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:07pm
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Nothing in the rule says that getting hit in the face is an automatic foul. Just like it would not be with an elbow if a player is legally doing what they are allowed to do. So getting hit in the face is not a good reason to simply call a foul.

Peace
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Nothing in the rule says that getting hit in the face is an automatic foul. Just like it would not be with an elbow if a player is legally doing what they are allowed to do. So getting hit in the face is not a good reason to simply call a foul.

Peace
Better answer:

"You know, you're right...I said the contact took place after the dunk, and I was clearly wrong."
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckrefguy View Post
Better answer:

"You know, you're right...I said the contact took place after the dunk, and I was clearly wrong."
No, contact in itself is not a foul. Again there are rules at play here, not some issue of when or if contact took place.

Peace
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:15pm
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Whatever.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckrefguy View Post
Whatever.
So you call a hand-check at the moment of contact? Or do you call a hand-check when the contact displaces or moved the ball handler? RSBQ anyone?

The issue is not when contact first took place, it is when the contact displaced the player.

And if this upsets you, then when you work your games you stop the tape and then look at different angles and make a call. For the rest of us we will get one shot at the call and decide when contact caused displacement. And the issue of a knee hitting someone is the most irrelevant part of this discussion honestly. I guess we are going to penalize him because he can jump?

Peace
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