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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:59pm
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Held ball vs. Traveling

4.25.2 vs. 4.44.3 Sit A

A few officials around here are having a pretty good discussion about how an official can judge:

"preventing a player from releasing the ball" vs. "does not prevent a player from releasing the ball".

Some are saying that the defender has to have contact with the ball all the way to the floor to "prevent a try for goal or pass".

Would any of you like to give some examples to make it clearer for an official to judge such acts?

Or is it simply a matter of "that's why we get the big bucks" ?
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:12pm
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Option b.

Sometimes, you just gotta officiate.
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
4.25.2 vs. 4.44.3 Sit A

A few officials around here are having a pretty good discussion about how an official can judge:

"preventing a player from releasing the ball" vs. "does not prevent a player from releasing the ball".

Some are saying that the defender has to have contact with the ball all the way to the floor to "prevent a try for goal or pass".

Would any of you like to give some examples to make it clearer for an official to judge such acts?

Or is it simply a matter of "that's why we get the big bucks" ?
If the defender prevents him from releasing the shot, then I have a held ball.
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
Option b.

Sometimes, you just gotta officiate.
...that kinda goes along with my "big bucks" comment...

anything helpful to add?
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
If the defender prevents him from releasing the shot, then I have a held ball.
OK...

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball.

Whatta ya got?
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
OK...

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball.

Whatta ya got?

If A1 is standing on the floor holding the ball and B1 also touches the ball, what do you have?
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If A1 is standing on the floor holding the ball and B1 also touches the ball, what do you have?
...nothing...but, is this apples and oranges?

I see what you are getting at...and that probably is a good way to look at it...

but, IMO most officials see the touching as preventing. I see this called a held ball most of the time. Don't you?

Note:
I have to leave work now...I'll pick up this conversation later. Thanks for the input.
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Last edited by RookieDude; Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:02pm.
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:11pm
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I had a game last week where I judged it a travel as I felt the defender did not hinder an attempted shot. And then tonight I had one I called a held ball. Just because a hand touches the ball does not automatically make it a held ball. It has to hinder a shot from being released. A touch of the ball does not fit that definition in some cases.

As others are saying, trust your judgment. You can tell the difference when it has definitely been hindered.
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:53pm
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Play:

A1 dribbling towards the division line, picks up the dribble on the run with one hand to pass. His release of the pass is delayed when B1 gets one hand on the ball. Before A1 releases the pass, his pivot foot comes back down in his run.

Immediately after that, B1 loses his grip and A1 is able to release his pass.
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Old Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
OK...

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball.

Whatta ya got?
Travel.

4.44.3 SITUATION A:

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and *subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

Last edited by OKREF; Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:29pm.
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Old Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:47am
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In the OP play, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to a held ball. It has to be obvious that the defensive touch wasn't sufficient to prevent the release, or the shooter gave up before the defender touched the ball.
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Old Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:36am
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From The Mythbusters Files ...

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, its a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.
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Old Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
In the OP play, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to a held ball. It has to be obvious that the defensive touch wasn't sufficient to prevent the release, or the shooter gave up before the defender touched the ball.
Agreed. Same as on your play in post #9.
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Old Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
In the OP play, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to a held ball. It has to be obvious that the defensive touch wasn't sufficient to prevent the release, or the shooter gave up before the defender touched the ball.
Yes...I generally do as well. I did however, have a traveling violation the other night that was probably a correct call but a held ball would have been more consistent with what we usually call around here.

My partner said later he probably would have went with a held ball, the "offenders" coach wanted a held ball, the player wanted a held ball, the fans wanted a held ball....it was just me and the "defenders" coach that thought it was traveling.

Wow...only 2 people in the building that got it right.
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