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-   -   Inadvertent whistle (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93126-inadvertent-whistle.html)

jeremy341a Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 865342)
Here is another element (sorry if someone said this already), we are not going to start a 10 second back court count if either B or A touches the ball in this situation, so that is why I do not know why we automatically give the ball back to Team A if an inadvertent whistle took place and the ball was essentially loose.

Peace


This just made the light bulb come on in my head.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 865332)
Is this correct?
Yes.

Eastshire Thu Dec 06, 2012 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 865338)
The team control only applies to fouls on the offense on the throw in. When it was tipped the throw in was over and there was no team control, therefore unless the whistle happened when team A had the ball, it would be an AP.
That is not what the rule says. It may be the intention of the committee, but it's not the rule.

JRutledge Thu Dec 06, 2012 01:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 865358)
That is not what the rule says. It may be the intention of the committee, but it's not the rule.
They only changed the rule for foul purposes. So we have a clear loophole or something the NF never thought about.

Peace

Eastshire Thu Dec 06, 2012 01:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 865360)
They only changed the rule for foul purposes. So we have a clear loophole or something the NF never thought about.

Peace
They only meant to change the rule for foul purposes. Because of some bad editing, they changed the rule for several other things as well.

JRutledge Thu Dec 06, 2012 01:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 865363)
They only meant to change the rule for foul purposes. Because of some bad editing, they changed the rule for several other things as well.
Isn't that why I agreed with BNR that they should have adopted the NCAA rule?

And in the change they said they were to keep everything else the same but changed this rule for when to call a TC foul.

The NCAA changed the other rules to make it clear that nothing else would be the result other than a TC foul and all the other rules were changed to make exceptions for the situation.

Peace

Raymond Thu Dec 06, 2012 02:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 865334)
Shouldn't they also get it in the orginal example on the throw in even though Team B tipped it due to having team control on a throw in? Or does the tip end team control bc it ends the throw-in?
Dang, guess I typed all this for no reason:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 865319)
You would go to the AP arrow whenever there isn't team control or a try is missed.

The debate here is whether there is true TC on a throw-in or is a throw-in just a situation where a TC foul would be called but no other TC elements are applied.

What further complicates the matter is that a throw-in ends when the ball is legally touched (B1 tips throw-in) but we are told to call a TC foul up until someone secures player control.

The NFHS has made a mess of this rule. They should have just adopted the NCAA rule for Team Control and modified the 10-second, backcourt, 3-second rules to state PC must first be established.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 06, 2012 05:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 865336)
By rule, TC would continue. By intent as expressed by the NFHS, it seems to be up in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 865358)
That is not what the rule says. It may be the intention of the committee, but it's not the rule.
2012-13 rules, yes. 2010-11 rules, no.
NFHS has stated to revert to previous language even though it didn't make these changes for the current book.
Very poor by the NFHS and tough situation for the officials.:(

billyu2 Thu Dec 06, 2012 07:36pm
In a similar situation (4.19.8 F) the Team A throw-in is released and before the ball is legally touched a double foul occurs. As with an inadvertent whistle, play resumes from the POI. In this caseplay the ball is given back to Team A not on the basis of team control; but because the throw-in had not ended. Evidently the ruling is based on what we have been told that team control on a throw-in only applies to fouls by a member of the throw-in team. My guess is (although I don't like it) that if the IW occurred after the legal deflection we would go AP. But in the OP, the IW came after A2 had possesion so the POI would be Team A ball. Your thoughts?

JRutledge Thu Dec 06, 2012 07:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865450)
2012-13 rules, yes. 2010-11 rules, no.
NFHS has stated to revert to previous language even though it didn't make these changes for the current book.
Very poor by the NFHS and tough situation for the officials.:(
It is not that tough. Do what we say in football, "The official that has the inadvertent whistle buys the first round."

IW are usually so rare that it does not matter. And I do not think I have ever seen one on this situation. Heck the officials in the OP could have just gone with the violation and moved on and it would not have been an issue. ;)

Peace

just another ref Thu Dec 06, 2012 09:10pm
All this brings to mind one of the worst calls we must make, by rule. A lead by 1 with seconds left in the game, A1 is trying to dribble out the clock in the backcourt, closely guarded by B1. A1 loses his footing, and the ball rolls free toward B's basket. But before B1 can reach the ball and score the winning layup, the whistle inexplicably sounds.

OOPS

By rule, not only is B denied the uncontested layup, but A gets the ball back.


I would like to see a change here.

In the event of an inadvertent whistle while the ball is loose, it shall be a judgment call by the official which team shall be awarded possession.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 07, 2012 09:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865450)
2012-13 rules, yes. 2010-11 rules, no.
NFHS has stated to revert to previous language even though it didn't make these changes for the current book.
Very poor by the NFHS and tough situation for the officials.:(
What would the NCAA ruling be on the OP?

Raymond Fri Dec 07, 2012 09:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 865515)
What would the NCAA ruling be on the OP?
In the NCAA there is true TC on a throw-in per 4-15-1.2c: When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

bob jenkins Fri Dec 07, 2012 09:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 865518)
In the NCAA there is true TC on a throw-in per 4-15-1.2c: When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in
FED 4-12-2d "when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in."

Raymond Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 865520)
FED 4-12-2d "when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in."
But the Fed said that is not the case, it was a mis-print.


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