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-   -   Inadvertent whistle (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93126-inadvertent-whistle.html)

JRutledge Wed Dec 05, 2012 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 865173)
4-36-1
Point of interruption: Method of resuming play due to officials INADVERTENT WHISTLE...

(This ruling brought to you courtesy of the 2012-13 NFHS iphone app)

You do realize that POI can be an AP application right?

Peace

bob jenkins Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 865124)
It is actually called an accidental whistle. Inadvertent whistle is a football term.

With that being said, they go to the AP if he blew the whistle for a violation and the ball was not in possession. Team A would get the ball if they had the arrow. But it does not sound like that might not have been the case here.

Peace

The ball was still in TC, even if it wasn't in PC (or "posession.")

Use POI for an IW. Since there was TC, it goes back to A for a throw-in.

Bad Zebra Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 865174)
You do realize that POI can be an AP application right?

Peace

Yes. I was just confirming that the term Inadvertent Whistle was in fact a basketball term (since I have been using for many years)

Nevadaref Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 865175)
The ball was still in TC, even if it wasn't in PC (or "posession.")

Use POI for an IW. Since there was TC, it goes back to A for a throw-in.

I concur. The only caveat with respect to the question asked by the OP is that the throw-in for team A will be at the OOB spot nearest to where the ball was located when the whistle sounded. This may not result in a throw-in on the endline. In this instance, where the original throw-in came from is not a factor in deciding from where to award the new throw-in.

Bad Zebra Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 865175)
The ball was still in TC, even if it wasn't in PC (or "posession.")

Use POI for an IW. Since there was TC, it goes back to A for a throw-in.

Ha! Alphabet soup!

maven Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 865142)
Does team control continue after B1 tips the ball?

Yes.

And, even if it didn't, in the OP team A seems to be in player control of the ball when the IW is blown, and thus has team control.

bainsey Wed Dec 05, 2012 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 865124)
It is actually called an accidental whistle. Inadvertent whistle is a football term.

I have a 2011 NFHS rule book handy here at work. 4-36-1 says "inadvertent."

OKREF Wed Dec 05, 2012 05:26pm

A few years back it changed to "inadvertent", but at one time it was "accidental". Not sure what year it changed, but it has changed. If you try to search accidental on the NFHS App, nothing shows up.

Camron Rust Wed Dec 05, 2012 07:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 865175)
The ball was still in TC, even if it wasn't in PC (or "posession.")

Use POI for an IW. Since there was TC, it goes back to A for a throw-in.

(EDIT: My comment below is only in reference to the point about their being team control or not, not what you do with the IW)


Is that really true now since they basically said all other rules are as they were as before on that issue where the only thing that changes is that you can have a team control foul during a throwin....which is not necessarily the same as having team control. (You can have a PC foul without PC in the case of an airborne shooter).

Raymond Wed Dec 05, 2012 07:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 865211)
Is that really true now since they basically said all other rules are they were as before on that the only thing that changes is that you can have a team control foul during a throwin....which is not necessarily the same as having team control. (You can have a PC foul without PC in the case of an airborne shooter).

After B1 tips the ball and while it is rolling loose, A2 pushes B2. Do we have a Team Control foul?

Nevadaref Wed Dec 05, 2012 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 865211)
Is that really true now since they basically said all other rules are they were as before on that the only thing that changes is that you can have a team control foul during a throwin....which is not necessarily the same as having team control. (You can have a PC foul without PC in the case of an airborne shooter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 865215)
After B1 tips the ball and whiling it is rolling loose, A2 pushes B2. Do we have a Team Control foul?

Of course, but that is due to the NFHS modifying the definition of a team control foul this season as opposed to the definition of team control last season.

Camron is referring to this passage from the changes of this season:


<TABLE dir=ltr border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width=529><TBODY><TR><TD height=75 vAlign=top>A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a team that has team control (including a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds).

Rationale: The committee adopted a team-control rule change for last season which introduced some complications for a number of other rules. These complications were handled through interpretations last year. The addition of this parenthetical statement allows all rules affected by the team-control definition change last season to revert to their previous verbiage and brings the rule in line with the interpretations that were released last year.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Unfortunately, the NFHS did NOT change all of the affected rules back to their previous verbiage. Thus we have a situation in which we obtain different rulings by following the above guidance or what the text in the current rules book actually says. :(

Raymond Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865216)
Of course, but that is due to the NFHS modifying the definition of a team control foul this season as opposed to the definition of team control last season.
...

Which is why I would give the ball back to the throw-in team if we have an IW instead of a foul in this situation.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865216)
Unfortunately, the NFHS did NOT change all of the affected rules back to their previous verbiage. Thus we have a situation in which we obtain different rulings by following the above guidance or what the text in the current rules book actually says. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 865227)
Which is why I would give the ball back to the throw-in team if we have an IW instead of a foul in this situation.

Would you do that under the rules which were in place for the 2010-11 season? The definitions of player and team control were different.

Raymond Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865232)
Would you do that under the rules which were in place for the 2010-11 season? The definitions of player and team control were different.

I don't think retroactively :D

JRutledge Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 865201)
I have a 2011 NFHS rule book handy here at work. 4-36-1 says "inadvertent."

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 865203)
A few years back it changed to "inadvertent", but at one time it was "accidental". Not sure what year it changed, but it has changed. If you try to search accidental on the NFHS App, nothing shows up.

After doing some research this is absolutely true. They did used to only use accidental whistle previously and it appears they have corrected this in almost every example or interpretation in the rulebook and casebook.

Still with that being said I still think that you go to the AP as all the rule did was change to what we classify a foul, not what happens in the situation with the ball. And since this is not a foul situation, the team is really not in Team Control as they would not be as it relates to a back court situation either. I also cannot find a specific casebook play at this time to dispute either action. Again my rational is the ball is loose at the time of the whistle off the throw-in. It might not be fair, but that is what the rules states for this remedy at this time.

Peace


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