NCAA sitch

[icallfouls]

In talking with some friends, they relayed a play to me that occurred recently.

A1 shooting the first of a 1 & 1. After the release, A2 is whistled for a foul. A1 makes first FT. Ruling on the floor was: A2 committed a TC, FT was not counted, gave ball to B on endline.

What have you got? Please cite rule/casebook.

[Adam]

When does team control end?

[deecee]

hmm, this is an interesting one. I'm not sure about that, but then again I'm not sure either way. In the case of say a jump shot, the shot would still count, so why would it be different here. I would conjecture that based on logic and how this is handled during a jump shot count the FT but they don't get a second one.

I actually can't wait to learn how this should be adjudicated because this is a pretty good case play.

In HS the only issue would be that the only players who could commit this foul without violating first would be the players behind the three point arc. Either way nice scenario.

[Adam]

Why wouldn't he get the second one?

If you call off the shot, he needs the replacement shot. Either way, you clear the lane for the shots, then give B the ball at the spot nearest the foul.

There are plenty of ways this could happen along the lane without a violation.

[deecee]

Adam, I am trying to think in HS how this could happen along the lane without a player violating since the ball hasn't hit the rim or backboard AND not committing an act that is intentional (IE. two-handed shove), and for the life of me I can't envision it. In college I completely agree with your statement.

My hang up was the second shot and I would like a rule or casebook citation as this is one area that I agree with your ruling, and mine also makes logical sense as well.

So you are saying that the first FT counts and then the lane is cleared for the second?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

Adam, I am trying to think in HS how this could happen along the lane without a player violating since the ball hasn't hit the rim or backboard AND not committing an act that is intentional (IE. two-handed shove), and for the life of me I can't envision it. In college I completely agree with your statement.

My hang up was the second shot and I would like a rule or casebook citation as this is one area that I agree with your ruling, and mine also makes logical sense as well.

So you are saying that the first FT counts and then the lane is cleared for the second?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And if B is in the bonus, you'll head to the other end and shoot.

I see no rule basis for disallowing the second shot. This is a classic false double foul, each carrying its own penalty. The penalty for the first is a one and one, which means a second shot if the first is successful. There's no rule that allows the official to negate a part of this penalty. What's your logic?

As for high school, I could see it happening with a hold or push that wasn't intentional. Not likely, as I've never seen it, but it's not unthinkable.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And if B is in the bonus, you'll head to the other end and shoot.

I see no rule basis for disallowing the second shot. This is a classic false double foul, each carrying its own penalty. The penalty for the first is a one and one, which means a second shot if the first is successful. There's no rule that allows the official to negate a part of this penalty. What's your logic?

As for high school, I could see it happening with a hold or push that wasn't intentional. Not likely, as I've never seen it, but it's not unthinkable.

Agree...first shot remains live if it was released prior to the foul. If not released, it is dead but it isn't canceled, it is just administered after the foul is reported.

And yes, it is not hard for a foul to occur without a violation before the FT restrictions end (whether that point is on the release or when the ball hits). The FT restrictions only limit extending the feet outside the lane space. The arms are not restricted....so a foul could easily occur. Maybe not likely, but very possible. Alternately, the foul could just involve players not along the lane.

[Adam]

Seems to me a foul off the lane here would be more likely to be ruled intentional.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

hmm, this is an interesting one. I'm not sure about that, but then again I'm not sure either way. In the case of say a jump shot, the shot would still count, so why would it be different here. I would conjecture that based on logic and how this is handled during a jump shot count the FT but they don't get a second one.

A try is a try -- whether it's a try from the field or a FT. The ruling is the same.

Most college officials would get this one right, I would hope.

And, in HS, you cn commit a foul without violating -- most foulds are committed with the hands / arms / torso and most violations involve a step with the foot.

Now, a I agree maybe a more patient whistle could have avoided the situation, but I wasn't there to see it.

[deecee]

Yup the logic seems sound. Why should a player not be entitled to finish his 1&1 and still get the second shot? That does make sense. The only loop for me was the NEXT FT, I would have counted the first one anyway, I would have kicked the part after that.

Glad we straightened it out.

[dahoopref]

From this years NCAA casebook; it's a little different from the OP's original question as this situation occurs BEFORE the FT is shot by A1.

A.R. 104. Before a free throw by A1 is in flight, A2 pushes B2, then A3
steps into the free-throw lane too soon. The bonus is in effect for
both teams.

RULING: The foul by A2, which created a false double foul, is a
team-control foul and causes the ball to become dead immediately.
Consequently, A3’s violation shall be ignored. A1 shall attempt the
free throw(s) with no players on the lane and when the last try is successful,
Team B shall have the privilege to run the endline. When the
last try is unsuccessful, play shall be resumed by awarding Team B the
ball for a throw-in at a designated spot closest to where the teamcontrol
foul occurred.
(Rule 4-29.4 and 8-6.1)

My question is this: If the foul by A2 is deemed to be a "team control" foul, then why is A1 allowed the 2nd FT? Thanks for your responses.

[APG]

Why wouldn't A1 shoot his FT's? He's still entitled to shoot them. The fact that there was a team control foul just means that FT's won't be shot for that particular foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

In talking with some friends, they relayed a play to me that occurred recently.

A1 shooting the first of a 1 & 1. After the release, A2 is whistled for a foul. A1 makes first FT. Ruling on the floor was: A2 committed a TC, FT was not counted, gave ball to B on endline.

What have you got? Please cite rule/casebook.

False double foul.

Count the FT.

Clear the lane, shoot the 2nd FT.

Give B the ball for a base line throw-in or shoot 1 & 1 if in the bonus.

The foul by A2 doesn't take away the FTs by A1, whether the foul occurs before or after the release.

BTW, this play really isn't that difficult.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

My question is this: If the foul by A2 is deemed to be a "team control" foul, then why is A1 allowed the 2nd FT? Thanks for your responses.

Because false double fouls carry their own penalties. You can't penalize one until the previous penalty is completed.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by APG

Why wouldn't A1 shoot his FT's? He's still entitled to shoot them. The fact that there was a team control foul just means that FT's won't be shot for that particular foul.

Originally Posted by Adam

Because false double fouls carry their own penalties. You can't penalize one until the previous penalty is completed.

I was under the impression that a TC foul would be treated like any other in that no points could be scored by the team in control of the ball and part of the penalty would be treated like a violation during a FT.

Thanks for the clarification; really appreciate it.