Steps on Layup

[hoopguy]

4) A1 picks up the dribble with neither foot on the ground. He is now allowed to take one step with both feet.

This never happens. Basketball players always have one foot on the ground when they pick up their dribble. No one picks up their dribble in the air. Decide which foot was the pivot foot when the player picks up his dribble and then decide if it was a travel. Basically, for a right handed layup, the player would pick up his dribble on his right foot and then jump off his left foot. If the player picks up his dribble on his left foot and then steps with his right and then jumps off his left, it is a travel. In this situation, I have seen refs signal to the coach and raise 3 fingers telling the coach his player took 3 steps. The coach was questioning the call and this was effective.

Some refs use the 'neither foot was on the ground' as an excuse for missing travel calls. Just admit you missed it and move on. Do not say that the player picked up his dribble with neither foot on the ground. We all miss travel calls. It is one of the toughest to get on layups while looking for contact and multiple players around and the potential legal jump stop.

I know others are going to vehemently disagree with this but try finding and posting video of a situation where the player picks up his dribble with neither foot on the ground.

[Adam]

Yeah, I disagree. Most layups are performed that way.

Typically, the ball is gathered just after the last foot leaves the floor. Next foot down is the pivot.

If you're not seeing that, they're teaching it wrong or you're not seeing it right.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

If you're not seeing that, they're teaching it wrong or you're not seeing it right.

Hey, it wasn't until 1878 that it was determined that a galloping horse lifts all four feet completely off the ground. How long will it take until the layup issue in this thread is settled?

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Hey, it wasn't until 1878 that it was determined that a galloping horse lifts all four feet completely off the ground. How long will it take until the layup issue in this thread is settled?

Not very long . . . 4-44-2 a. "A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
(a.) If both feet are off the floor and the player lands: etc."

So, even the Rule Book understands that a player, running or dribbling, will at times, catch the ball with both feet off the floor.

[jump stop]

99% of people associated with basketball can't state the rules for traveling. They can only tell it doesn't look right. Which is not good.

I played bball for years and in college and had no idea the actual rules for traveling "only that it looks like a travel "

I had to read the rules over and over for it to make sense. Who ever wrote them was very smart, at first I thought "this can't be right"

The hardest thing to grasp is : 1. catching a dribble, the dribble ends when you catch the ball (i.e. gather or control) 2) when one foot is on floor and you catch dribble the foot on the floor is not the pivot until the other foot touches in step ( does that make clear sense) 3) if you catch a dribble with one foot on floor you can jump off of that foot and land on 2 simultneously there is no pivot
Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can then be the pivot foot.

I think this video clearly covers these concepts and I would bet "rekent" is not totally clear on this.


I think this video clearly covers these concepts

[rekent]

Originally Posted by jump stop

Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and...

...

I think this video clearly covers these concepts and I would bet "rekent" is not totally clear on this.

That actually is exactly what I was thinking/call, and Art. 3 is what I base it on. I just failed to include the fact that the player may jump from the pivot foot and land on both feet simultaneously because my conversation was tailored specifically at classic layups in which the player is running through the shot rather than traveling in general.

I guess I did not articulate what was in my mind particularly well - my basketball hypothetical scenario writing probably needs some further development before I start mingling with the big dogs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rekent

I guess I did not articulate what was in my mind particularly well - my basketball hypothetical scenario writing probably needs some further development before I start mingling with the big dogs.

Some learn by reading, some learn by mingling. Keep mingling, I have a hunch it'll help you learn. For me, considering scenarios that stretch the boundaries of a particular rule or set of rules helps me to apply those rules during a game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Considering scenarios that stretch the boundaries of a particular rule or set of rules helps me to apply those rules during a game.

Amen.

[rekent]

Originally Posted by Adam

...considering scenarios that stretch the boundaries of a particular rule or set of rules helps me to apply those rules during a game.

I absolutely agree as well. I forget the precise situation, but last spring a very odd-ball, once in forever type case was posted on the forum, and darned if I did not see almost the exact same thing a couple weeks later during a championship game. I just had to smile as I made my call, knowing I got it right after reading the scenario here when I might have otherwise blown the call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

4) A1 picks up the dribble with neither foot on the ground. He is now allowed to take one step with both feet.

This never happens. Basketball players always have one foot on the ground when they pick up their dribble.
....

I know others are going to vehemently disagree with this but try finding and posting video of a situation where the player picks up his dribble with neither foot on the ground.

It does happen. It may not be frequent, but it does happen. To just say it never happens and call a travel because you don't think it can happen is just being lazy.

I've seen some pretty nifty moves that were based on such action and they were 100% legal. Maybe it didn't "look right" but it was legal.

[APG]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

I know others are going to vehemently disagree with this but try finding and posting video of a situation where the player picks up his dribble with neither foot on the ground.

And I'm one of them...to say that it never happens in basketball is...well wrong IMO. You can see it happen during layups where the player is attempting it on the run. Also seen it plenty of times during jump stops.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by APG

To say that it never happens in basketball is, well wrong. You can see it happen layups where the player is attempting it on the run. Also seen it plenty of times during jump stops.

... especially in younger players when they try to shoot with their weak hand on the weak side, or even worse, when they shoot with their strong hand on the weak side. It usually looks really odd, but odd isn't always a traveling violation.

[just another ref]

Never say never, but I say that it is quite rare for a player to catch the ball ending a dribble with both feet off the ground. With the benefit of slow motion, I think a large majority of layups could be called a travel, but it is generally difficult to impossible to pinpoint the exact location of the feet when the dribble is ended, so, when in doubt,

let it go.

Having said that, tune in any college game, and you will see moves to the basket involving a spin or whatever, which are impossible to perform legally, yet go uncalled, I assume by design.

"If they're not gonna call it, they should change the rule." **

**Bob Knight

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is generally difficult to impossible to pinpoint the exact location of the feet when the dribble is ended, so, when in doubt, let it go.

Bingo.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Having said that, tune in any college game, and you will see moves to the basket involving a spin or whatever, which are impossible to perform legally, yet go uncalled, I assume by design.

I wouldn't make that assumption.