block/charge/no call considerations

Camron Rust

APG wrote
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.

Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.

JRutledge

I would not mind an RA, but I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I just do not find HS officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be OK with this, but I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace

APG

Camron Rust wrote
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.

That may be the reason for some. But then again, there could be, *GASP*, folks that never thought a help defender running in front of the basket for the sole purpose of getting a charge is a "legit" form of defense. Neither school of thought is right or wrong (for debate purposes...obviously in all but NFHS, it ISN'T good defense (save for exceptions).

It is what it is...the RA is here and isn't going anywhere. A generation from now, they'll look back at the RA and wonder how the game was played before it. 😛

I also agree with Rut, that the RA at the high school level is problem a while away...heck we have a hard enough time getting a lot of officials to call it properly in the first place as it is.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly.

Although the block charge is not the most difficult call for me (it's traveling), here in "Two Person Connecticut", having to make the block charge call, especially the block charge that just "pops up" unexpectedly, would be extra difficult if I had to look down for some lines on the court. Just being brutally honest, with you guys, and myself.

dsqrddgd909

jrutledge wrote
i would not mind an ra, but i think it would not be officiated properly at the hs level. I just do not find hs officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be ok with this, but i think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace

Raymond

Camron Rust wrote
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.

Yes, b/c only you and those who agree with you are capable of independent thought. 🙄

bob jenkins

tref wrote
Just my opinions based on my experiences, many times the lesser experienced officials dont pick up the secondary defender in time (prior to contact) & when the crash happens... they guess. The RA provides us with a formula. In the RA = a block & it also allows the T or C to provide info to "get the play right."

The RA only solves that problem when the contact happens inside the RA. And, most of the time the contact is outside, so the problem still exists.

From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....

Raymond

bob jenkins wrote
...From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....

This is what I heard directly from a D1 supervisor's mouth.

tref

bob jenkins wrote
From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....

Yes it was a hot-topic in May:
http://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Groups/104883/Library/files/2012%20MBB%20Committee%20Report%20for%20Arbiter.pdf

Reps = success, I'm sure we'll see an improvement this season.

Better 😕
I always thought that "next level" officials were just individuals who were afforded & took advantage of an opportunity that some excellent HS officials have not been provided with, for whatever reasons.

jeremy341a

What is next? The goalie can't stand too close to the goal because that isn't a good for of defense. The knights can't protect the castle by defending on top of the wall. lol

APG

jeremy341a wrote
What is next? The goalie can't stand too close to the goal because that isn't a good for of defense. The knights can't protect the castle by defending on top of the wall. lol

When there's a goalie playing in a basketball game, I'll start to worry about that. What others sports may or may not permit is of no consequence in this scenario.

rockyroad

APG wrote
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help FROM THE OTHER TEAM defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not.

Fixed that one for ya...

If it's "their" team - it's a great play.

APG

rockyroad wrote
Fixed that one for ya...

If it's "their" team - it's a great play.

For traditionalist, that may be a great play.

For most other people, they don't consider it a great play for a secondary defender to stand close to the basket for the sole purpose of trying to take a charge. EVERY major rule set except for NFHS agrees so (do they also mention safety reason as well). Now they aren't all uniform in distance or even exact application (FIBA requiring the defender to be completely inside the RA) but they're all on the same wavelength.

Camron Rust

APG wrote
For traditionalist, that may be a great play.

For most other people, they don't consider it a great play for a secondary defender to stand close to the basket for the sole purpose of trying to take a charge. EVERY major rule set except for NFHS agrees so (do they also mention safety reason as well). Now they aren't all uniform in distance or even exact application (FIBA requiring the defender to be completely inside the RA) but they're all on the same wavelength.

And they all sell it as a change for safety...not because the game needed the change to favor the offense. The safety element was only a problem because officials didn't call the game according to the rules.

APG

Camron Rust wrote
And they all sell it as a change for safety...not because the game needed the change to favor the offense. The safety element was only a problem because officials didn't call the game according to the rules.

Sure that was the official reason, but I think I'd be safe to say that NCAA knew exactly what they had in mind with how the rule would affect help defenders running to a spot near the basket with no intention to do anything else but try and take a charge. Plus it's not as if most fans (whom you stated liked to watch good defense) weren't clamoring for the RA for years anyway.

Eastshire

APG wrote
Sure that was the official reason, but I think I'd be safe to say that NCAA knew exactly what they had in mind with how the rule would affect help defenders running to a spot near the basket with no intention to do anything else but try and take a charge. Plus it's not as if most fans (whom you stated liked to watch good defense) weren't clamoring for the RA for years anyway.

Fans like high scoring games and don't like defense other than blocks. We all know that. But where does it stop? How long until there's no such thing as a PC foul anywhere in the paint? Then anywhere at all? After all, it will give us more offense.

Basketball isn't an interesting sport for me at the levels that use the RA. Mainly because of the increased emphasis on solo rather than team play on offense and the RA contributes heavily to this.

tref

Eastshire wrote
Fans like high scoring games and don't like defense other than blocks. We all know that. But where does it stop? How long until there's no such thing as a PC foul anywhere in the paint? Then anywhere at all? After all, it will give us more offense.

We will see it in the League years before we see it in HS. I doubt the League would ever adopt such an absurd ruling.

Eastshire wrote
Basketball isn't an interesting sport for me at the levels that use the RA. Mainly because of the increased emphasis on solo rather than team play on offense and the RA contributes heavily to this.

Zone buster... Man up! 😀

Adam

tref wrote
We will see it in the League years before we see it in HS. I doubt the League would ever adopt such an absurd ruling.

Honestly, I would have said the same thing about the RA rule before it got so popular.

APG

Eastshire wrote
Fans like high scoring games and don't like defense other than blocks. We all know that. But where does it stop? How long until there's no such thing as a PC foul anywhere in the paint? Then anywhere at all? After all, it will give us more offense.

Basketball isn't an interesting sport for me at the levels that use the RA. Mainly because of the increased emphasis on solo rather than team play on offense and the RA contributes heavily to this.

I don't believe that...fans like blocks obviously, but they also like steals, they like the on ball defender moving his feet, beating the offensive player to the spot and taking a charge...they don't mind help defenders taking a charge as long as you aren't do it at/right near the basket. To think the RA will somehow lead to a slippery slope of no charges I think is over the top. Again, most fans aren't totally against the charge...that will never been taken out of the game. I have a hard time seeing the paint being into an RA at even the NBA level. If they're going to do anything with the paint in the NCAA, I would guess they'd widen the lane to the NBA/FIBA width.

To your last point, if high school ball is all that interests you now, more power to you. I would say that I don't believe the RA contributes much to this solo ball that you speak of...coaches at the NCAA/HS level (I'm assuming you don't watch any NBA ball) have been complaining about that well before the RA has been implemented (and in HS its not even implemented). I think the solo ball is more affected by players playing more AAU vs. traditional organized HS games. But that's a subject for another thread.

Raymond

Eastshire wrote
...
Basketball isn't an interesting sport for me at the levels that use the RA. Mainly because of the increased emphasis on solo rather than team play on offense and the RA contributes heavily to this.

I suggest you pay a little more attention to the offenses college teams are running. They put a lot of time into screens, back cuts, and siwnging the ball to get the shots they are looking for. I'm more likely to see one-on-one play at the HS level where you have a tendency to have 1-2 players who are clearly more talented then the rest of their team.

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