The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 02:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: PG County, MD
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
In NFHS, once the ball leaves the shooters hand does that eliminate control (Player and team)?

I'm just wondering as this is the case in FIBA, and the post would then be a call as a common foul on offence for a push. If basket goes it would count.
Once the ball leaves the shooter's hand(s), correct, there is no longer control. If the shooter crshes into the defender before returning to the floor, it is a player control foul on the airborne shooter and no basket. if the shooter lands first, and then crashes into the defender, then it's a charging foul and the basket counts if it goes in.
__________________
You learn something new everyday ...
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 02:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
In NFHS, once the ball leaves the shooters hand does that eliminate control (Player and team)?
Yes & Yes.

It's still a PC foul, however.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 04:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Just my opinions based on my experiences, many times the lesser experienced officials dont pick up the secondary defender in time (prior to contact) & when the crash happens... they guess. The RA provides us with a formula. In the RA = a block & it also allows the T or C to provide info to "get the play right."
That may be (regarding the lesser experienced officials) but that was no reason to turn a perfectly good change into a block just because some officials got it wrong as a result of not looking in the right spot. It wasn't that adding the RA made us get it right, it changed the balance of offense and defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
I don't see the defense getting robbed of anything. Get there before the shooter alights or get out the way! The people came to see made baskets NOT collisions in the paint.
Sure they are. With the RA they can be there before the shooter alights and they still get called with a block..just because their heels are on the RA arc.

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 05:54pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
That may be (regarding the lesser experienced officials) but that was no reason to turn a perfectly good change into a block just because some officials got it wrong as a result of not looking in the right spot. It wasn't that adding the RA made us get it right, it changed the balance of offense and defense.



Sure they are. With the RA they can be there before the shooter alights and they still get called with a block..just because their heels are on the RA arc.

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.
^ This.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 08:17pm
APG's Avatar
APG APG is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 09:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.
^ That.
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:24pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,989
I would not mind an RA, but I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I just do not find HS officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be OK with this, but I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:42pm
APG's Avatar
APG APG is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.
That may be the reason for some. But then again, there could be, *GASP*, folks that never thought a help defender running in front of the basket for the sole purpose of getting a charge is a "legit" form of defense. Neither school of thought is right or wrong (for debate purposes...obviously in all but NFHS, it ISN'T good defense (save for exceptions).

It is what it is...the RA is here and isn't going anywhere. A generation from now, they'll look back at the RA and wonder how the game was played before it.

I also agree with Rut, that the RA at the high school level is problem a while away...heck we have a hard enough time getting a lot of officials to call it properly in the first place as it is.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.


Last edited by APG; Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:28am.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 06:47am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,164
Block Charge Is Hard Enough Already ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly.
Although the block charge is not the most difficult call for me (it's traveling), here in "Two Person Connecticut", having to make the block charge call, especially the block charge that just "pops up" unexpectedly, would be extra difficult if I had to look down for some lines on the court. Just being brutally honest, with you guys, and myself.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 07:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Detroit Metro
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrutledge View Post
i would not mind an ra, but i think it would not be officiated properly at the hs level. I just do not find hs officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be ok with this, but i think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace
+1
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 07:36am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.
Yes, b/c only you and those who agree with you are capable of independent thought.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 07:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Just my opinions based on my experiences, many times the lesser experienced officials dont pick up the secondary defender in time (prior to contact) & when the crash happens... they guess. The RA provides us with a formula. In the RA = a block & it also allows the T or C to provide info to "get the play right."
The RA only solves that problem when the contact happens inside the RA. And, most of the time the contact is outside, so the problem still exists.

From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:01am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
...From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....
This is what I heard directly from a D1 supervisor's mouth.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....
Yes it was a hot-topic in May:
http://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Gro...%20Arbiter.pdf

Reps = success, I'm sure we'll see an improvement this season.

Better
I always thought that "next level" officials were just individuals who were afforded & took advantage of an opportunity that some excellent HS officials have not been provided with, for whatever reasons.
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Block, Charge or No Call Indianaref Basketball 57 Thu May 13, 2010 03:30pm
Block? Charge? No call? Clark Kent Basketball 53 Mon Jan 25, 2010 03:25pm
Block/Charge/No Call djskinn Basketball 35 Sun Oct 18, 2009 07:31pm
Block/Charge/No Call hbioteach Basketball 8 Fri Dec 03, 2004 03:32pm
Block, Charge or No call cingram Basketball 7 Wed Jun 02, 2004 08:09am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1