Blood/sub ?

[deecee]

There can be no blood on the jersey (they would have to fully wash, etc and I dont think that can be done during the game).

They can put on an unused jersey and/or use a jersey off a substitute. Once the jersey has been changed (taken from a sub) that sub cannot re-enter the game without a new jersey which would require a number change and a Technical foul.

However there is no penalty for changing a jersey with blood on it as in using an extra jersey the team packs, or from a sub or even asking the other team if they have a jersey that can be used (ie same color and is not misleading to the teams).

[APG]

Originally Posted by deecee

They can put on an unused jersey and/or use a jersey off a substitute. Once the jersey has been changed (taken from a sub) that sub cannot re-enter the game without a new jersey which would require a number change and a Technical foul.

However there is no penalty for changing a jersey with blood on it as in using an extra jersey the team packs, or from a sub or even asking the other team if they have a jersey that can be used (ie same color and is not misleading to the teams).

I somehow don't think that NFHS wants a technical foul handed out to the sub if he were to come into the game with a new number. I could be pursued otherwise, but I don't see myself giving a T in that situation.

[deecee]

Changing a number in the book is a T. The only player excluded would be the player with blood, or say a ripped jersey or something of the sort that damages the jersey.

So the coach lets the sub in by using a different subs jersey so you change that number. Then he wants that new sub without a jersey in so you change that number. What happens when the number recycles onto the third different player, maybe the fourth due to subbing and jersey swapping? Your book will be a royal mess.

Im not going to read into to much of what the NFHS wants except that they want every effort made to make sure the initial player with the problem gets an attempt to play without penalty. Beyond that no free lunches.

[APG]

Originally Posted by deecee

Changing a number in the book is a T. The only player excluded would be the player with blood, or say a ripped jersey or something of the sort that damages the jersey.

So the coach lets the sub in by using a different subs jersey so you change that number. Then he wants that new sub without a jersey in so you change that number. What happens when the number recycles onto the third different player, maybe the fourth due to subbing and jersey swapping? Your book will be a royal mess.

Im not going to read into to much of what the NFHS wants except that they want every effort made to make sure the initial player with the problem gets an attempt to play without penalty. Beyond that no free lunches.

I'm not saying you allow jersey swapping left and right. I'm thinking of the scenario where a coach tells a bench player to give up his jersey to a player in the game because a spare one couldn't be found. While play continues on, a spare jersey is found and given to the substitute. If the sub comes into the game, I'd be hard pressed to hand out a T. Handing out a T in this situation seems, at least to me, to be counter to the intent of the rule.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by APG

I'm not saying you allow jersey swapping left and right. I'm thinking of the scenario where a coach tells a bench player to give up his jersey to a player in the game because a spare one couldn't be found. While play continues on, a spare jersey is found and given to the substitute. If the sub comes into the game, I'd be hard pressed to hand out a T. Handing out a T in this situation seems, at least to me, to be counter to the intent of the rule.

APG I agree with you. If I think the coach made a real effort and thought he was out of jersey's I do agree with you. Usually this won't be the case and coaches often make it very obvious of what they are doing and just want/expect us to look the other way.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by deecee

Changing a number in the book is a T. The only player excluded would be the player with blood, or say a ripped jersey or something of the sort that damages the jersey.

Casebook 3.3.7A disagrees...
3.3.7 SITUATION A: B1 is directed to leave the game because of excessive
blood on his/her uniform shirt. Team B’s manager has failed to pack any extra
shirts. (a) The coach asks one of the substitutes to give his/her shirt to B1; or (b)
Team A is able to find a shirt which B1 can wear even though it is not exactly the
same color or style of the Team B shirts. The shirt will however, clearly identify
B1 as a member of Team B and will not be confusing to either team or the officials.
RULING: Acceptable procedure in both (a) and (b). In both situations the
scorer will make necessary changes in the scorebook without penalty.
COMMENT: The spirit and intent of the rule is to do everything possible to allow
the player to use a different shirt and return without penalty. However, identical
numbers shall not be allowed on the same team.

"Necessary changes in the scorebook..." could include, without stretching anything, the sub getting another jersey so he could play later, I'm thinking. "Changes" is plural, and no limit seems to be indicated.

Or do I have a mistaken take on the original sitch?

Sincerely,
A Plumber

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Casebook 3.3.7A disagrees...
3.3.7 SITUATION A: B1 is directed to leave the game because of excessive
blood on his/her uniform shirt. Team B’s manager has failed to pack any extra
shirts. (a) The coach asks one of the substitutes to give his/her shirt to B1; or (b)
Team A is able to find a shirt which B1 can wear even though it is not exactly the
same color or style of the Team B shirts. The shirt will however, clearly identify
B1 as a member of Team B and will not be confusing to either team or the officials.
RULING: Acceptable procedure in both (a) and (b). In both situations the
scorer will make necessary changes in the scorebook without penalty.
COMMENT: The spirit and intent of the rule is to do everything possible to allow
the player to use a different shirt and return without penalty. However, identical
numbers shall not be allowed on the same team.

"Necessary changes in the scorebook..." could include, without stretching anything, the sub getting another jersey so he could play later, I'm thinking. "Changes" is plural, and no limit seems to be indicated.

Or do I have a mistaken take on the original sitch?

Sincerely,
A Plumber

That is the exception to the bktballref rule.

[deecee]

Like I said I agree with APG's earlier assessment assuming the team made a good faith effort at that moment to find a replacement. If one just happens to be found later then by all means. However if it's just for convenience then why do we have to bend? We do enough bending and the rules and the comment says that we do everything possible. It doesn't say that we have to help them rush him back RIGHT away.

coach can use a TO if ITS that imperative. guarantee you it will be done by the end of the TO. I don't want to nor like making changes to the book unless I absolutely have to.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by deecee

Like I said I agree with APG's earlier assessment assuming the team made a good faith effort at that moment to find a replacement. If one just happens to be found later then by all means. However if it's just for convenience then why do we have to bend? We do enough bending and the rules and the comment says that we do everything possible. It doesn't say that we have to help them rush him back RIGHT away.

coach can use a TO if ITS that imperative. guarantee you it will be done by the end of the TO. I don't want to nor like making changes to the book unless I absolutely have to.

Evidently you also don't like to be helpful, cooperative or doing anything that you're not made to. Are you always so stubborn?

Your partners must be thrilled when they see your name on their assignments.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently you also don't like to be helpful, cooperative or doing anything that you're not made to. Are you always so stubborn?

Your partners must be thrilled when they see your name on their assignments.

Partner's name is "Costello."

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently you also don't like to be helpful, cooperative or doing anything that you're not made to. Are you always so stubborn?

Your partners must be thrilled when they see your name on their assignments.

Nice and presumptive off of one case play. Funny how "judgement" outside the rules is applied to reasoning when it best serves one or not. One can make allowances in the spirit of the games as well as jump through flaming hoops. Run your games as you wish I try and keep interpretations out of it when necessary so that expectations are consistent (or in this case inconsistent).

It's like hearing "Oh but the other officials let us."

All I'm saying is that make an allowance but beyond that keep it simple and follow the rule. Most likely if the kid has to change his jersey he has to leave the gym anyway. You going to hold up the game this whole time? He has as much chance to make it to the locker room, if that is where the replacement jersey is to change and be back most likely by the next opportunity to sub in. But you can let them change on the bench since that would speed things up more.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by APG

I somehow don't think that NFHS wants a technical foul handed out to the sub if he were to come into the game with a new number. I could be pursued otherwise, but I don't see myself giving a T in that situation.

I'm with you. Most times, the coach will pick a player who won't play the rest of that game, but if he picks a player on the bench, then that player comes out of the locker room with a new, previously unused number, i got nothing.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm with you. Most times, the coach will pick a player who won't play the rest of that game, but if he picks a player on the bench, then that player comes out of the locker room with a new, previously unused number, i got nothing.

Why can't the offending player go to the locker room and get that new said jersey? changing 2 numbers is no where covered in the rules. I get the intention of the rule and I am in no way OO but the rule is clear that the exception is for the initially affected player.

So you would change 2 numbers where clearly ONLY 1 was allowed without ANY penalty? I don't see how this is an intentions versus straight ignoring 2 rules. I would say my opinion, but unfortunately I am backed by the specific rules here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why can't the offending player go to the locker room and get that new said jersey? changing 2 numbers is no where covered in the rules. I get the intention of the rule and I am in no way OO but the rule is clear that the exception is for the initially affected player.

So you would change 2 numbers where clearly ONLY 1 was allowed without ANY penalty? I don't see how this is an intentions versus straight ignoring 2 rules. I would say my opinion, but unfortunately I am backed by the specific rules here.

Do what you want. You are backed by the letter of the rule.

I'm not going to punish a coach for choosing the quickest route to keeping his player in the game when it's the very scenario they made the exception for.

[26 Year Gap]

Just make sure the shirt doesn't come off in the visible confines. The players are usually pretty quick about those changes when they have to occur and scamper out of the gym and back with very little delay.

I still remember the kid who changed shorts in the confines before the T rule came into play.