NFHS emphasis on elbow contact

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

LGP is a status that applies to both stationary and moving players who are in the act of guarding. The LGP rules states that to obtain LGP a player must have both feet on the court. This applies to a stationary player. If you are a stationary player facing your opponent with one foot in and one foot out of bounds and contact occurs it should be called a block because the stationary player did not have LGP. Out of bounds is not considered being on the court. LGP does apply to a stationary player in some scenarios.

I believe some are getting hung up on what about the player who has their back to an opponent and the opponent crashes into their back. LGP does not apply here because you only need LGP if you are guarding someone. Also, it doesn't apply because the player is entitled to the spot on the floor as long as they got there legally.

Consider this scenario.

B1 is guarding A1. A1 passes to A2 who drives up the court near the side line. B1 switches to guarding A2. When he pivots one foot is in and one is out. It is at this time that he is facing A2. He is not moving. A step later a crash occurs.

Did B1 have LGP? No. Was B1 a stationary player? Yes. What's your call?
I have a block because B1 never had LGP.

I have a block because B1 does not have a legal position on the court.
LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

If A2 takes his arm and shoves B1, then I have a player control foul.

The defender can't make a legal basketball play from his location, but opponents cannot whack him just because he has a foot on the boundary line.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

You have to have LGP to start a five second count, and during a five second you could be stationary, so it would apply to a stationary defender. You have to be within 6 feet and be in a legal guarding position.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You have to have LGP to start a five second count, and during a five second you could be stationary, so it would apply to a stationary defender. You have to be within 6 feet and be in a legal guarding position.

You are talking about the requirement for a "closely guarded count/violation." True, that violation requires the defender to obtain LGP AND be within six feet.

I am commenting simply on a defender. A player can be a defender an stand sideways without moving, never obtaining LGP, and still has a right to not get fouled by an opponent. However, he lacks certain other rights. You have named one of them--closely guarded. The defender cannot cause the closely guarded count to be enacted. This defender also does not have the right to be moving laterally or obliquely at the time of contact. Both of those are additional rights that a defender earns after obtaining LGP.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are talking about the requirement for a "closely guarded count/violation." True, that violation requires the defender to obtain LGP AND be within six feet.

I am commenting simply on a defender. A player can be a defender an stand sideways without moving, never obtaining LGP, and still has a right to not get fouled by an opponent. However, he lacks certain other rights. You have named one of them--closely guarded. The defender cannot cause the closely guarded count to be enacted. This defender also does not have the right to be moving laterally or obliquely at the time of contact. Both of those are additional rights that a defender earns after obtaining LGP.

Agreed...My thought on OOB and contact. If the defensive player is straddling line, they do not have legal guarding position, and aren't legally on the court, therefore in my opinion the offense can't be charged a foul if contact occurs. Just my thought, not saying I am absolutely right either, just my interpretation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Agreed...My thought on OOB and contact. If the defensive player is straddling line, they do not have legal guarding position, and aren't legally on the court, therefore in my opinion the offense can't be charged a foul if contact occurs. Just my thought, not saying I am absolutely right either, just my interpretation.

I would agree as far as a normal basketball play is concerned. What an official cannot allow is for an offensive player to shove, elbow, punch, or kick such an opponent. Player safety is paramount and it is not open season on the opponent simply because that individual has a foot OOB. That is the point which Camron Rust keeps trying to make.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would agree as far as a normal basketball play is concerned. What an official cannot allow is for an offensive player to shove, elbow, punch, or kick such an opponent. Player safety is paramount and it is not open season on the opponent simply because that individual has a foot OOB. That is the point which Camron Rust keeps trying to make.

Oh yea, totally agree with that. All of those are non normal contact examples.

[Adam]

B1 in the lane guarding A2. As A2 drives into the lane, he runs over a stationary B1, still facing away.

What's your call?

What if, at the last second, B1 spins around on one foot, now actively guarding A1. He doesn't get his other foot down before A1 plows over B1, who is stationary.
Call?

LGP does not apply to a stationary defender.

I can't find where it says a defender with a foot on the line doesn't have a legal position on the court, only that he doesn't have LGP. There's a difference.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would agree as far as a normal basketball play is concerned. What an official cannot allow is for an offensive player to shove, elbow, punch, or kick such an opponent. Player safety is paramount and it is not open season on the opponent simply because that individual has a foot OOB. That is the point which Camron Rust keeps trying to make.

In addition, the offensive player can't just run into the defender in the form of a block/charge and expect to get a block just because the defender was OOB when they could have easily gone around particularly if they go out of their way to make the contact. The situation this rule was created for was when the defender was trying to cut off the offense's path along a boundary by deliberately stepping across the line. That's it. If you don't have that, then this situation doesn't really apply.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In addition, the offensive player can't just run into the defender in the form of a block/charge and expect to get a block just because the defender was OOB when they could have easily gone around particularly if they go out of their way to make the contact. The situation this rule was created for was when the defender was trying to cut off the offense's path along a boundary by deliberately stepping across the line. That's it. If you don't have that, then this situation doesn't really apply.

It was the exact argument I made when the new ruling came out. However, a stationary player with one foot in and one foot out doesn't have LGP and for that reason can be called for a block even if the contact is on the torso with the caveat that the offensive player didn't go out of his way to run him over.

But to say a stationary defender never has to have LGP is not correct. In SOME instances it is required.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I have a block because B1 does not have a legal position on the court.
LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

If A2 takes his arm and shoves B1, then I have a player control foul.

The defender can't make a legal basketball play from his location, but opponents cannot whack him just because he has a foot on the boundary line.

If LGP does not apply to a stationary defender in SOME instances why is the definition to obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor and facing your opponent. Because it does in SOME instances apply to a stationary defender. Its right there in black in white.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

If LGP does not apply to a stationary defender in SOME instances why is the definition to obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor and facing your opponent. Because it does in SOME instances apply to a stationary defender. Its right there in black in white.

Nothing says you have to be stationary to obtain. A player could literally be walking, for example, and still meet this requirement.

Being stationary really couldn't be less relevant to LGP.

Oh, and I have a charge on that play. B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor, as long as he isn't moving at contact.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. Nothing says you have to be stationary to obtain. A player could literally be walking, for example, and still meet this requirement.

I agree, however, a player may also be stationary to obtain LGP. Which means LGP is required for a stationary player in this instance.

SITUATION 13: A1 is dribbling near the sideline when B1 obtains legal guarding position. B1 stays in the path of A1 but in doing so has (a) one foot touching the sideline or (b) one foot in the air over the out-of-bounds area when A1 contacts B1 in the torso. RULING: In (a), B1 is called for a blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position. In (b), A1 is called for a player-control foul because B2 had obtained and maintained legal guarding position. (4-23-2; 4-23-3a)

Nothing in the above case play or rule requires the player to be moving. The player can also be stationary and stay in the path of A1. Nothing prohibits a stationary player. The rule says you obtain LGP with too feet on the floor and facing your opponent. This can include a stationary player.

In my opinion you are wrong to make a blanket statement that LGP does not apply to a stationary player.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Adam

Nothing says you have to be stationary to obtain. A player could literally be walking, for example, and still meet this requirement.

Being stationary really couldn't be less relevant to LGP.

Oh, and I have a charge on that play. B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor, as long as he isn't moving at contact.

For purposes of this discussion stationary = 2 feet on the floor and not moving.

Nothing says you have to be moving to obtain or that you can only obtain while moving.

Would you not agree that a player who is stationary (both feet in-bounds) with his torso facing the opponent has met the definition of LGP? Would you also not agree that a player who is stationary with one foot out of bounds and one foot in and who did not have LGP before assuming this position still does not have LGP?