NFHS emphasis on elbow contact

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If they put it OOB on purpose, by the literal application of the rules, they have committed a violation the moment it touches OOB and a foul is not technically possible.

If they are guarding an opponent and step OOB (knowingly or not) in an attempt to cut off their path, they do not have LGP and will be called for a block.

If they are not guarding the opponent and are simply there and are not moving, they don't have LGP (per the rule under discusssion) but don't need it. If the offensive player still can't avoid them, I'm not calling a block. They haven't done anything that the rule defines as being a block. The offensive player is not going to get a free foul called against the defender.

The only thing I disagree with is that a stationary player does not need LGP. In some cases they do. A stationary player who is guarding an offensive player must start with LGP. They then can move to maintain it. But to say that a stationary player does not require LGP is not accurate per the rule. At least not in all cases.

For example, if B1 is guarding A1, then pivots to guard A2 and in so doing he places his foot out of bounds, B1 is now a stationary player but does not have LGP and is required to have LGP in this case. You can say they are in violation for leaving the court. But only if you judge intent. But the LGP rule is very clear that they have to have two feet on the inbound side of the court. I believe the wording was chosen to indicate that they can't establish LGP with one foot in and one foot out.

[rwest]

A stationary player who is in the act of guarding requires LGP. Do you agree with that statement?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

A stationary player who is in the act of guarding requires LGP. Do you agree with that statement?

I do not.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Adam

I do not.

LGP is a status that applies to both stationary and moving players who are in the act of guarding. The LGP rules states that to obtain LGP a player must have both feet on the court. This applies to a stationary player. If you are a stationary player facing your opponent with one foot in and one foot out of bounds and contact occurs it should be called a block because the stationary player did not have LGP. Out of bounds is not considered being on the court. LGP does apply to a stationary player in some scenarios.

I believe some are getting hung up on what about the player who has their back to an opponent and the opponent crashes into their back. LGP does not apply here because you only need LGP if you are guarding someone. Also, it doesn't apply because the player is entitled to the spot on the floor as long as they got there legally.

Consider this scenario.

B1 is guarding A1. A1 passes to A2 who drives up the court near the side line. B1 switches to guarding A2. When he pivots one foot is in and one is out. It is at this time that he is facing A2. He is not moving. A step later a crash occurs.

Did B1 have LGP? No. Was B1 a stationary player? Yes. What's your call?
I have a block because B1 never had LGP.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

LGP is a status that applies to both stationary and moving players who are in the act of guarding. The LGP rules states that to obtain LGP a player must have both feet on the court. This applies to a stationary player. If you are a stationary player facing your opponent with one foot in and one foot out of bounds and contact occurs it should be called a block because the stationary player did not have LGP. Out of bounds is not considered being on the court. LGP does apply to a stationary player in some scenarios.

I believe some are getting hung up on what about the player who has their back to an opponent and the opponent crashes into their back. LGP does not apply here because you only need LGP if you are guarding someone. Also, it doesn't apply because the player is entitled to the spot on the floor as long as they got there legally.

Consider this scenario.

B1 is guarding A1. A1 passes to A2 who drives up the court near the side line. B1 switches to guarding A2. When he pivots one foot is in and one is out. It is at this time that he is facing A2. He is not moving. A step later a crash occurs.

Did B1 have LGP? No. Was B1 a stationary player? Yes. What's your call?
I have a block because B1 never had LGP.

Your entire argument hinges on the mistaken belief that a defender must have LGP in order to draw a charge. You don't even need LGP to be guarding someone. You only need LGP to be moving or jumping when there is contact. That's it.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your entire argument hinges on the mistaken belief that a defender must have LGP in order to draw a charge. You don't even need LGP to be guarding someone. You only need LGP to be moving or jumping when there is contact. That's it.

If B2 is guarding A2 when A1 drives the lane. If B2 moves to guard A2 but does not have two feet on the floor when contact occurs in the chest then I have a block. Why? Because the defender never had LGP. So yes in that instance he must have LGP to take a charge. To have LGP you must have two feet on the floor facing your opponent. You are mistaken when you make a blanket statement that LGP does not apply to a stationary player. In SOME instances it does. Its in the rule book black and white. To obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor facing your opponent. That can be as a stationary player or a moving player. That's when LGP begins. You can then move to maintain (NOT OBTAIN) it. You are assuming that LGP only applies to a moving player. It does not. A stationary defender can be called for a block if they have one foot in and one foot out because they do not have LGP in that limited scenario.

It seems like all of you are suggesting that I am saying a stationary player always has to have LGP. I'm not saying that. However, you are making blanket statements that do not apply in all instances.

You are under the mistaken belief that LGP never applies to a stationary defender. It does SOME times.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

If B2 is guarding A2 when A1 drives the lane. If B2 moves to guard A2 but does not have two feet on the floor when contact occurs in the chest then I have a block. Why? Because the defender never had LGP. So yes in that instance he must have LGP to take a charge. To have LGP you must have two feet on the floor facing your opponent.

Wow. Just wow. Your understanding of LGP is getting even more off base. That is fundamentally just wrong. There is absolutely no requirement that B2's feet be on the floor when contact occurs.

Originally Posted by rwest

You are mistaken when you make a blanket statement that LGP does not apply to a stationary player. In SOME instances it does. Its in the rule book black and white. To obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor facing your opponent. That can be as a stationary player or a moving player. That's when LGP begins.

My point is that, while a stationary player may have LGP, they don't need it.

Originally Posted by rwest

You can then move to maintain (NOT OBTAIN) it. You are assuming that LGP only applies to a moving player. It does not. A stationary defender can be called for a block if they have one foot in and one foot out because they do not have LGP in that limited scenario.

It seems like all of you are suggesting that I am saying a stationary player always has to have LGP. I'm not saying that. However, you are making blanket statements that do not apply in all instances.

You are under the mistaken belief that LGP never applies to a stationary defender. It does SOME times.

A stationary player can have LGP but it doesn't do anything for them. If they are stationary they're not doing anything that LGP permits them to do.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

If B2 is guarding A2 when A1 drives the lane. If B2 moves to guard A2 but does not have two feet on the floor when contact occurs in the chest then I have a block. Why? Because the defender never had LGP. ...

While I do not disagree with some of the points you have made in this thread you are completely wrong on this point. Once LGP is established B2 may move to maintain LGP and having 1 foot in the air at the time of contact means nothing.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by rwest

LGP is a status that applies to both stationary and moving players who are in the act of guarding. The LGP rules states that to obtain LGP a player must have both feet on the court. This applies to a stationary player. If you are a stationary player facing your opponent with one foot in and one foot out of bounds and contact occurs it should be called a block because the stationary player did not have LGP. Out of bounds is not considered being on the court. LGP does apply to a stationary player in some scenarios.

I believe some are getting hung up on what about the player who has their back to an opponent and the opponent crashes into their back. LGP does not apply here because you only need LGP if you are guarding someone. Also, it doesn't apply because the player is entitled to the spot on the floor as long as they got there legally.

Consider this scenario.

B1 is guarding A1. A1 passes to A2 who drives up the court near the side line. B1 switches to guarding A2. When he pivots one foot is in and one is out. It is at this time that he is facing A2. He is not moving. A step later a crash occurs.

Did B1 have LGP? No. Was B1 a stationary player? Yes. What's your call?
I have a block because B1 never had LGP.

Block

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

LGP is a status that applies to both stationary and moving players who are in the act of guarding. The LGP rules states that to obtain LGP a player must have both feet on the court. This applies to a stationary player. If you are a stationary player facing your opponent with one foot in and one foot out of bounds and contact occurs it should be called a block because the stationary player did not have LGP. Out of bounds is not considered being on the court. LGP does apply to a stationary player in some scenarios.

I believe some are getting hung up on what about the player who has their back to an opponent and the opponent crashes into their back. LGP does not apply here because you only need LGP if you are guarding someone. Also, it doesn't apply because the player is entitled to the spot on the floor as long as they got there legally.

Consider this scenario.

B1 is guarding A1. A1 passes to A2 who drives up the court near the side line. B1 switches to guarding A2. When he pivots one foot is in and one is out. It is at this time that he is facing A2. He is not moving. A step later a crash occurs.

Did B1 have LGP? No. Was B1 a stationary player? Yes. What's your call?
I have a block because B1 never had LGP.

I have a block because B1 does not have a legal position on the court.
LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

If A2 takes his arm and shoves B1, then I have a player control foul.

The defender can't make a legal basketball play from his location, but opponents cannot whack him just because he has a foot on the boundary line.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

You have to have LGP to start a five second count, and during a five second you could be stationary, so it would apply to a stationary defender. You have to be within 6 feet and be in a legal guarding position.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You have to have LGP to start a five second count, and during a five second you could be stationary, so it would apply to a stationary defender. You have to be within 6 feet and be in a legal guarding position.

You are talking about the requirement for a "closely guarded count/violation." True, that violation requires the defender to obtain LGP AND be within six feet.

I am commenting simply on a defender. A player can be a defender an stand sideways without moving, never obtaining LGP, and still has a right to not get fouled by an opponent. However, he lacks certain other rights. You have named one of them--closely guarded. The defender cannot cause the closely guarded count to be enacted. This defender also does not have the right to be moving laterally or obliquely at the time of contact. Both of those are additional rights that a defender earns after obtaining LGP.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I have a block because B1 does not have a legal position on the court.
LGP has nothing to do with a stationary defender.

If A2 takes his arm and shoves B1, then I have a player control foul.

The defender can't make a legal basketball play from his location, but opponents cannot whack him just because he has a foot on the boundary line.

If LGP does not apply to a stationary defender in SOME instances why is the definition to obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor and facing your opponent. Because it does in SOME instances apply to a stationary defender. Its right there in black in white.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

If LGP does not apply to a stationary defender in SOME instances why is the definition to obtain LGP you must have two feet on the floor and facing your opponent. Because it does in SOME instances apply to a stationary defender. Its right there in black in white.

Nothing says you have to be stationary to obtain. A player could literally be walking, for example, and still meet this requirement.

Being stationary really couldn't be less relevant to LGP.

Oh, and I have a charge on that play. B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor, as long as he isn't moving at contact.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

The only thing I disagree with is that a stationary player does not need LGP. In some cases they do. A stationary player who is guarding an offensive player must start with LGP. They then can move to maintain it. But to say that a stationary player does not require LGP is not accurate per the rule. At least not in all cases.

For example, if B1 is guarding A1, then pivots to guard A2 and in so doing he places his foot out of bounds, B1 is now a stationary player but does not have LGP and is required to have LGP in this case. You can say they are in violation for leaving the court. But only if you judge intent. But the LGP rule is very clear that they have to have two feet on the inbound side of the court. I believe the wording was chosen to indicate that they can't establish LGP with one foot in and one foot out.

I don't disagree with what you've said. They can't establish LGP with a foot OOB. But, the ONLY thing LGP does is grant a defender the right to be moving/jumping at the time of contact. If they are not doing any of those things, LGP is irrelevant.