Rebounding action/ out-of bounds

[Rob1968]

A1 shoots, A2 and B2 grasp the ball in the air. When they come down, both securely holding the ball, with no illegal contact by either, the right foot of B2 is on the endline.
Out-of bounds by B2 or jumpball? Any references?
Thanks, Rob

[Adam]

Oob

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

A2 and B2 grasp the ball in the air. When they come down, both securely holding the ball, with no illegal contact by either, the right foot of B1 is on the endline. Out-of bounds by B1 or jumpball?

(Nice use of the term "endline" instead of "baseline". Questionable use of the term "jumpball" instead of "heldball", unless you were talking about a play that happened forty years ago? I'll leave it up to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to comment on the ancient interpretation. Let me remind Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. that The Official Forum has now merged with Twitter and that all posts must be 140 characters, or less.)

Rob1968: Are you implying that a player who is touching a ball that is touching another player, who happens to be out of bounds, that the inbounds player is also out of bounds, and that this should be treated as two players who knock a ball out of bounds at the same time (held ball)?

No. Only B1 is out of bounds. Team A ball on the endline. Keeping it simple makes this call easy peasey lemon squeezy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Nice use of the term "endline" instead of "baseline". Questionable use of the term "jumpball" instead of "heldball", unless you were talking about a play that happened forty years ago? I'll leave it up to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to comment on the ancient interpretation. Let me remind Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. that The Official Forum has now merged with Twitter and that all posts must be 140 characters, or less.)

Rob1968: Are you implying that a player who is touching a ball that is touching another player, who happens to be out of bounds, that the inbounds player is also out of bounds, and that this should be treated as two players who knock a ball out of bounds at the same time (held ball)?

No. Only B1 is out of bounds. Team A ball on the endline. Keeping it simple makes this call easy peasey lemon squeezy.

No, he was wondering whether you would call the airborne held ball, or call B1 OOB and give the ball to A.

I stand by my original answer, OOB.

[just another ref]

If both players are securely holding the ball while airborne, why would you not go with the held ball?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If both players are securely holding the ball while airborne, why would you not go with the held ball?

Ah ha, the plot thickens.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If both players are securely holding the ball while airborne, why would you not go with the held ball?

I'm just saying what I'd likely call in real time in a game. Is it possible that an airborne held ball would be so obvious that I'd call it? Sure, but it's just not likely. But two players with their hands on the ball isn't sufficient for a held ball call, and we normally give the players a moment to sort it out by trying to get control from their opponents.

That's pretty hard to do in the short time they're airborne, and even harder without the leverage of their feet on the floor.

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If both players are securely holding the ball while airborne, why would you not go with the held ball?

Usually there's a time element before calling a held ball. I can't imagine the period from which two players are airborne, hold onto the ball, then return to the floor as being long enough to decide whether they "have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness," though in theory it could happen.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Usually there's a time element before calling a held ball. I can't imagine the period from which two players are airborne, hold onto the ball, then return to the floor as being long enough to decide whether they "have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness," though in theory it could happen.

AllPurposeGamer: Although I agree with your post, using the phrase "time element" supports the myth that, by rule, a certain amount of time must pass before an official calls a held ball.



A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, he was wondering whether you would call the airborne held ball, or call B1 OOB and give the ball to A. I stand by my original answer, OOB.

Thanks Snaqwells. I didn't catch that.

It may be possible that an official may deem the "double possession" to have occurred before B1 had touched out of bounds, but that pushing the limits of the rule.

NFHS 4-25: A held ball occurs when: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Without actually seeing it, I'm sticking with B1 out of bounds. Team A ball on the endline.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks Snaqwells. I didn't catch that.

It may be possible that an official may deem the "double possession" to have occurred before B1 had touched out of bounds, but that pushing the limits of the rule.

NFHS 4-25: A held ball occurs when: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Without actually seeing it, I'm sticking with B1 out of bounds. Team A ball on the endline.

Same here. The element missing in the OP for a held ball - without seeing a play, of course - is the "without undue roughness" part. It sounds as though both go up, both grab the ball and both come down without getting into some mid-air wrestling match. In that case just go with the OOB.

The horizontal version would be A1 & B1 diving for a ball on the floor near the endline/sideline and as both grab it at the same time A1 has a body part OOB. The ball is OOB off A1.

[just another ref]

In reality, I can see where out of bounds would often be the call. However, in the OP it is a given that both players are "securely holding the ball" while still airborne. With this in mind, is held ball a possible legitimate call?

yes

[stiffler3492]

Three seconds is a long time. If three seconds passes before we call a held ball, someone's likely to exclaim "Someone's going to get hurt!"

I wouldn't wait that long, and I don't think there's a time requirement. Two me, if two players from opposite teams are trying to wrest control away from one another and can't in one try, I've got a held ball.

I'd rather have a held ball too early than too late.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Any references?

SECTION 1 OUT-OF-BOUNDS — PLAYER, BALL
ART. 1 . A player is out of bounds when he/she touches the floor, or any
object other than a player/person, on or outside a boundary. For location of a
player in the air, see 4-35.
ART. 2 . The ball is out of bounds:
a. When it touches or is touched by:
1. A player who is out of bounds.
2. Any other person, the floor, or any object on or outside a boundary.
3. The supports or back of the backboard.
4. The ceiling, overhead equipment or supports.
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

SECTION 2 CAUSING THE BALL TO GO OUT OF BOUNDS – INDIVIDUAL PLAYER
ART. 1 . The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds
to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of
bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player.
ART. 2 . If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched
by a player who is on or outside a boundary line, such player causes it to go out.

SECTION 3 CAUSING THE BALL TO GO OUT OF BOUNDS – SIMULTANEOUSLY
ART. 1 . If the ball goes out of bounds and was last touched simultan eously
by two opponents, both of whom are inbounds or out of bounds, or if the official
is in doubt as to who last touched the ball or if the officials disagree, play shall
be resumed by the team entitled to the alternating-possession throw-in at the
spot out of bounds nearest to where the simultaneous violation occurred.
ART. 2 . If the alternating-possession procedure has not been established,
play shall be resumed by a jump ball between the two players involved in the
center restraining circle.

[Rob1968]

I was kinda rushed when I made the OP - - I had to get to work, and then back to the tournament, in the afternoon, for some finals, in the early afternoon. Thanks, for all the input.
The game in which the play occurred was good quality JVB game in a tournament.
As Lead, on a freethrow, the ball bounded high off the rim, to my side, and B2 and A2 got some good air, grasped the ball, with enough momentum that when they came down the one player's foot was on the endline. I expected that as they landed, one or the other would demonstrate more control of the ball, and was thinking that the oob call would be certain. However, they both still had such a grip on the ball, that neither could wrest control from the other, (without excessive rough play), and the held ball call became my choice.
As stated by several of the respondents, in most cases, the oob call would be the easy, preferred call. I posed the question because of the rarity of the elements of this particular play that led to my call.
(Incidentally, Rob 1968 refers to the year in which I officiated my first inter-scholastic game. So Mark Sr.'s got nuthin' on me when it comes to years in the rearview. . .)
Also, my use of the term "jumpball" may seem antiquated, but when I hit the whistle on a heldball, I usually verbalize "Jump!", in keeping with NFHS Officials Manual, 2.4.3 C. It seems to help with managing the possibility of excessively rough play.