Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

After thinking about it from a physics standpoint, I believe I know what is happening. Still not 100% sure because I can't slow it down frame by frame, but the physics works.

Both players are of a similar height and weight so there mass is going to be similar. They are both moving but in different directions. The offensive player is moving faster than the defender. So the offensive player has greater force. However, I don't believe the force from the hip contact is enough to displace the player. Remember, we have to take into account the force the defender is exerting. The force the offensive player is generating has to be sufficiently greater than the defenders to account for the displacement. I don't believe it is. It is however enough to cause him to be off balance. The elbow then causes him to be displaced like he was. That is why it appears to me that the defender gains momentum when contact occurs with the elbow. The hip caused the player to be off balance but it was the elbow the sent the player to the floor.

Good explanation. And I don't think I can disagree with any of it.

So then, was the hip contact legal or not (offensive foul, defensive foul, neither)?. Why?

I think we all agree that the hip contact was not an offensive foul, but was a potential defensive foul that some say is marginal.

Assuming that is not a foul....

Did that hip contact (caused by the defender who was clearly not in LGP) put the defender in a very precarious position where it would only take minor additional contact to send him over the edge? Did the elbow contact really put the defender at any more of a disadvantage or was the disadvantage mostly from being off balance from the hip contact?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good explanation. And I don't think I can disagree with any of it.

So then, was the hip contact legal or not (offensive foul, defensive foul, neither)?. Why?

I think we all agree that the hip contact was not an offensive foul, but was a potential defensive foul that some say is marginal.

Assuming that is not a foul....

Did that hip contact (caused by the defender who was clearly not in LGP) put the defender in a very precarious position where it would only take minor additional contact to send him over the edge? Did the elbow contact really put the defender at any more of a disadvantage or was the disadvantage mostly from being off balance from the hip contact?

Let me answer with a question. Assuming I have the sequence of events and the physics correct, would the player have gone to the floor without the elbow? I believe the answer to that question is the answer to whether or not we should have an offensive foul. It seems obvious to me that the offensive player was not disadvantaged because he was able to get a shot attempt off. The secondary player may have fouled, but I have nothing on the primary defender. And if we call a foul on the offensive player, then the secondary defenders contact would have been irrelevant. Having said all that, I believe the elbow is what sent the player to the floor and can't be ignored. I have an offensive foul. Remember the disadvantage to the defender was that he was not in a position to rebound the missed shot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Let me answer with a question. Assuming I have the sequence of events and the physics correct, would the player have gone to the floor without the elbow? I believe the answer to that question is the answer to whether or not we should have an offensive foul. It seems obvious to me that the offensive player was not disadvantaged because he was able to get a shot attempt off. The secondary player may have fouled, but I have nothing on the primary defender. And if we call a foul on the offensive player, then the secondary defenders contact would have been irrelevant. Having said all that, I believe the elbow is what sent the player to the floor and can't be ignored. I have an offensive foul. Remember the disadvantage to the defender was that he was not in a position to rebound the missed shot.

This is where we differ, I think he was going to the floor with or without the elbow, due to the hip contact form his cutting across the path of the offensive player, and the elbow was just the icing on the cake and to call and offensive foul would be bailing out a poor defensive play by a player was late to the spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rwest

Thinking about it from a physics standpoint.

I took physics in high school. They really helped me to become regular.