Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rule you cite is certainly valid, but doesn't really matter if it is the 2nd contact.

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

Foul on the offensive player. That was my first post early on

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.

I'll clarify: instead of simultaneous I should've said incidental regarding the first contact. My mistake there. At any rate, going back to my first post on this - the second after the video was put up - I said I would've been willing to let things go if I hadn't seen the elbow come up.

Also, why wouldn't it have been fair to call the second contact a foul? The offensive player shot out an elbow that made contact. It's hard to let that go, dead-ball contact or not.

Even if I had felt the defender commited a foul when the players first came together in the lane I would've had a tough time letting the elbow go unpunished.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Also, why wouldn't it have been fair to call the second contact a foul? The offensive player shot out an elbow that made contact. It's hard to let that go, dead-ball contact or not.

Why? Because it was a response to the defender coming into him in a way that was not legal. You may have ruled it incidental in its direct effect but if it draws that reaction from the offense, it really isn't incidental any more. You have to judge the whole play, not the parts in a vacuum.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? Because it was a response to the defender coming into him in a way that was not legal. You may have ruled it incidental in its direct effect but if it draws that reaction from the offense, it really isn't incidental any more. You have to judge the whole play, not the parts in a vacuum.

Which is what I'm doing. There's no level of contact. illegal or otherwise, that justifies putting an elbow into someone's chest.

[Toren]

Watching it in real time, I had a Team Control from the C position, probably a Team Control from the L position.

I didn't think he had the ball for player control, but couldn't tell with the video.

Watching it a second and third time, I'm okay with a no call. As the contact looked more incidental as I watched it more.

On the shot attempt, I have a no call. So basically, I'm fine with this ugly play and the two no calls that the officials had.

But since we officiate in real time, i would have blown and punched it up north, from the initial contact.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Player control foul on Blue #1.

Originally Posted by Toren

I didn't think he had the ball for player control.

Agree. I change my call to a team control foul on Blue #1. That was a nasty elbow.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Which is what I'm doing. There's no level of contact. illegal or otherwise, that justifies putting an elbow into someone's chest.

Maybe not, but I think in time you'll find you get a lot of grief if you only call the responsive contact and not he first contact. It is not in the spirit of the game to let someone get mauled and call them for a foul for fending of their opponent.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe not, but I think in time you'll find you get a lot of grief if you only call the responsive contact and not he first contact. It is not in the spirit of the game to let someone get mauled and call them for a foul for fending of their opponent.

Blue #1 didn't exactly get mauled during this play (I realize you're speaking generally, though). But again, even if he did as far as I'm concerned the elbow would have to be dealt with. If his coach didn't like it I'd have no problem explaining my thought process but my explanation would start with, "Coach, #1 hit the other kid with an elbow."

When I first saw the clip I had an issue with the elbow. The more I look at it, the more I think Blue #1 did it on purpose to clear space as opposed to being an involuntary action.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

So, you're saying the elbow was 2nd to contact. So the initial contact makes the ball dead and the elbow doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.