you make the call

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

A lot of coaches and refs do not like to see/admit any play in basketball is deliberately dirty. I think it helps to have played and to have played recently to be able to differentiate between a deliberate attempt to trip, kick or any dirty play vs. those who have not played ever or in a long time. There are very few times a ballplayer does not know exactly what he is doing and when a ballplayer is really out of control it is obvious. There are people out there who do not believe Artest's elbow was intentional. There is always someone who disagrees no matter how obvious.

What kind of crap is that?

Originally Posted by hoopguy

To me this play was obviously intentional. For whatever reason, the kid kicked the other kid on purpose. Maybe he regretted it, maybe not, but he purposely kicked the other kid and if I saw this I would throw him out.

A lot of players are idiots and having played, despite their claims that it makes a difference, doesn't give them any particular ability to discern anything about anything.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What kind of crap is that?

I believe he's talking about officials having a high basketball IQ or a feel for the way the game is played due to them playing the game (at a high level) before picking up the whistle.

Personally, I think bball IQ can be learned if an official never played. You've got to think, if 2 officials that began the craft on the same day, but 1 played (at high competitive level) & the other 1 didnt, the former would advance quicker due to his knowledge & understanding of the game.

After all, how is a male virgin gonna tell another guy how to hit a womans G-Spot. IJS

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I believe he's talking about officials having a high basketball IQ or a feel for the way the game is played due to them playing the game (at a high level) before picking up the whistle.

Personally, I think bball IQ can be learned if an official never played. You've got to think, if 2 officials that began the craft on the same day, but 1 played (at high competitive level) & the other 1 didnt, the former would advance quicker due to his knowledge & understanding of the game.

OTOH, it can also inhibit advancement, because the high level player more than likely has some misconceptions about the rules that will be hard to shake. It's also possible he has some biases (defense or offense) that will bleed into his game.

These are at least as likely as quicker advancement because of some Tebowish intangibles that he gained from playing at a "high level."

[walt]

To me, having watched this over and over at real speed and then frame by frame, at a minimum this is a dead ball contact foul every way I slice it. Even if, as some state, he was swinging his leg to get free of the other player, that doesn't give him free reign to swing it the way he wants without consequence. To me, that is not normal movement of his leg.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What kind of crap is that?

Crap?

Really? Just because his opinion is different than yours makes his opinion crap?

Maybe this is that "god complex" from earlier in the thread...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Crap?

Really? Just because his opinion is different than yours makes his opinion crap?

Maybe this is that "god complex" from earlier in the thread...

Yeah. He's trashing an entire group of officials because they haven't played recently or at all....that if they haven't, they just will not be able to be as good of an official. He's insinuating that only those played recently can properly call this play....that older officials that played a long time ago or those that never played can't. That is crap.

While former players may very well be able to be good officials and potentially have a head start in some areas over those that didn't play, they are just as likely to make crappy officials. It is sort of like the "I used to be a ref" statement you get from some coaches.

If what he said was any where near accurate, assignors would never want veteran officials because they were too far from having played. Last time I checked, assignors tend to prefer experienced officials over rookies who just finished playing.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yeah. He's trashing an entire group of officials because they haven't played recently or at all....that if they haven't, they just will not be able to be as good of an official. He's insinuating that only those played recently can properly call this play....that older officials that played a long time ago or those that never played can't. That is crap.

While former players may very well be able to be good officials and potentially have a head start in some areas over those that didn't play, they are just as likely to make crappy officials. It is sort of like the "I used to be a ref" statement you get from some coaches.

If what he said was any where near accurate, assignors would never want veteran officials because they were too far from having played. Last time I checked, assignors tend to prefer experienced officials over rookies who just finished playing.

He didn't trash anybody. He said "I THINK..." followed by his thoughts that being a player helps someone differentiate...you obviously got offended by that. Why? Who knows...but saying he trashed some group of people simply because you disagree with his thoughts on the matter? That's ridiculous.

For the record, I disagree with his thoughts on the matter also...but that doesn't make his thoughts "crap".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

He didn't trash anybody. He said "I THINK..." followed by his thoughts that being a player helps someone differentiate...you obviously got offended by that. Why? Who knows...but saying he trashed some group of people simply because you disagree with his thoughts on the matter? That's ridiculous.

For the record, I disagree with his thoughts on the matter also...but that doesn't make his thoughts "crap".

Ok...fair enough...perhaps too strong of a reaction on my part. I've just met too many people that, just because they played, they think they're better. Unfortunately, the ones with that attitude often hit a wall that others, whether recent players or not, often pass right by.

Sure, it can help. But it doesn't establish the ceiling of how good an official can be...it just shifts the broad spectrum of the two overall groups relative to each other...but there is a dramatic amount of overlap in the ability levels and the best (and worst) can come from either group. It may shift the starting point such that former players may get a head start...but there is nothing they know that non-players can't learn.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ok...fair enough...perhaps too strong of a reaction on my part. I've just met too many people that, just because they played, they think they're better. Unfortunately, the ones with that attitude often hit a wall that others, whether recent players or not, often pass right by.

Sure, it can help. But it doesn't establish the ceiling of how good an official can be...it just shifts the broad spectrum of the two overall groups relative to each other...but there is a dramatic amount of overlap in the ability levels and the best (and worst) can come from either group. It may shift the starting point such that former players may get a head start...but there is nothing they know that non-players can't learn.

Agreed...having played the game might help some people in their career, and might hurt others. Not one of those things that anyone can say 100% positive one way or the other...the 2 officials I know personally who have made it to Final Four status were not basketball players at all - one played football in college and the other ran track.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

He didn't trash anybody. He said "I THINK..." followed by his thoughts that being a player helps someone differentiate...you obviously got offended by that. Why? Who knows...but saying he trashed some group of people simply because you disagree with his thoughts on the matter? That's ridiculous.

For the record, I disagree with his thoughts on the matter also...but that doesn't make his thoughts "crap".

I thought his particular thoughts on this issue were crap, even though I didn't see him as trashing anyone in particular.