Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Of course not. A statement ("and 1") is not an action. It is asking for a foul. It is not making it appear there was one.

I see enough flops get a call that it is an issue. It would not be in the spotlight as much as it is right now if it were not an issue...even at the top levels.

So if officials are not recognizing flops and subsequently calling fouls on the opposing players how will calling T's help?

What's really at the core of the problem, refs who don't penalize flops or refs who are not properly ref'n the defense in order to properly judge the play?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if officials are not recognizing flops and subsequently calling fouls on the opposing players how will calling T's help?

What's really at the core of the problem, refs who don't penalize flops or refs who are not properly ref'n the defense in order to properly judge the play?

Officials ARE recognizing the flops but are not calling the T's. Why? Probably because no one wants to be the only one to do so or they feel the penalty is too harsh...I've suggested a lessor penalty for a flop in the past. Plus, many officials have an aversion to calling T's even when deserved.

Even if you properly referee the defense, you can get fooled by a flop.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Officials ARE recognizing the flops but are not calling the T's. Why? Probably because no one wants to be the only one to do so or they feel the penalty is too harsh...I've suggested a lessor penalty for a flop in the past. Plus, many officials have an aversion to calling T's even when deserved.

Even if you properly referee the defense, you can get fooled by a flop.

Or could it be that the rule is not very well defined?

We cannot even agree what a flop is and the rule does us that language at all as a description for what we are talking about. If the Rules Committees want this to be called they could define the rule much clearer than they have previously. Did anyone think pulling out a jersey was an unsportsmanlike act until the rule added that action as illegal?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Or could it be that the rule is not very well defined?

We cannot even agree what a flop is and the rule does us that language at all as a description for what we are talking about. If the Rules Committees want this to be called they could define the rule much clearer than they have previously. Did anyone think pulling out a jersey was an unsportsmanlike act until the rule added that action as illegal?

Peace

I don't know why you continue insist that the rule is unclear. The language is pretty basic. There is nothing unclear about the rule for anyone that doesn't want it to be unclear.

Was the player fouled? If not, did they do something not caused by the contact to try to make the official(s) think they were fouled? If yes, they faked a foul.

The real truth is that no one wants to call a T for it. Claiming the rule is unclear is just a scapegoat. I don't call T's for it...but I'm not going to make something up to justify not calling it.

As for the jersey, most people still don't believe it is unsportsmanlike but are stuck calling it because they explicitly listed it (sort of like faking being fouled is already explicitly listed)...and there were previously no words in the unsportsmanlike rule about jerseys. So, that is a poor comparison.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't know why you continue insist that the rule is unclear. The language is pretty basic. There is nothing unclear about the rule for anyone that doesn't want it to be unclear.

Was the player fouled? If not, did they do something not caused by the contact to try to make the official(s) think they were fouled? If yes, they faked a foul.
....

That's subjective. And it's also subjective whether the contact caused the ensuing "something".

If a player embellishes the severity of the contact is it faking a foul, whether or not a foul is judged by that particular official? Wait:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree. Embellishing (a player throwing themselves back after contact to a degree that doesn't match the level of contact) IS faking being fouled. It is an attempt to convince the official there was more contact than there was, that there was a foul when there may not have been enough contact for one. That is faking a foul. The only way it is not is when there really was a foul.
....

So you tell Jeff the rule is clear but here you make an interpretation that can found absolutely nowhere in the rule book. So again, please explain how this rule is so clear.

[Raymond]

Personally, I've never seen flopping or faking a foul to be a big problem in my games. More times than not it's the player's own coach who will tell him to quit falling down and/or to stay in there and take the charge.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Personally, I've never seen flopping or faking a foul to be a big problem in my games. More times than not it's the player's own coach who will tell him to quit falling down and/or to stay in there and take the charge.

This is what I see as well. Coaches here tend to know why I no-called it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So you tell Jeff the rule is clear but here you make an interpretation that can found absolutely nowhere in the rule book. So again, please explain how this rule is so clear.

90+% of the words in the rulebook are not defined in the rule book. It is basic English. There is nothing complicated or ambiguous about the word fake. If they wanted it to mean something other than the basic meaning of the word, they'd define it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

90+% of the words in the rulebook are not defined in the rule book. It is basic English. There is nothing complicated or ambiguous about the word fake. If they wanted it to mean something other than the basic meaning of the word, they'd define it.

Then explain why reasonable, intelligent persons such as yourself and Snaqs cannot agree whether embellishing contact is the same as faking a foul? Why should your interpretation being any more valid than his?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The real truth is that no one wants to call a T for it. Claiming the rule is unclear is just a scapegoat. I don't call T's for it...but I'm not going to make something up to justify not calling it.

From a previous thread:
Faking Being Fouled



Looks like that FIBA official didn't get the memo.