Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

One of the rare times, in an NBA game, where you'll see a flagrant foul penalty two get downgraded all the way to just a run-of-the-mill personal foul.

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

And even on this type of play, I'm okay with the personal foul on this call. That type of play can lead to escalation if not dealt with right away. But if the league wanted to treat this like they do technical fouls (in that points accumulate as does the amount of the fine...all leading to suspension at a threshold), then this would be the poster child for the type of play they should penalize.

On a side note, during the FIFA World Cup, I think they should review all yellow cards as those can lead to missed games. I also wouldn't mind if they assessed yellow cards after the fact, for diving...just like a technical foul or flagrant foul can be assessed after the fact in the NBA for the total number of points/total number needed for suspension.

[JRutledge]

And I would have no problem with such retroactive penalties in the NBA like the NFL does. It is after all a league and they can review every video to penalize such actions. As I said before it would have been much more appropriate to go crazy over this kind of play that started this thread.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

how do you know what i do during a game? And you can disagree all you like, but i do not see this as big of a problem that jvg made it out to be. I am lucky if one player flops in a single game and if they do, when we do not reward them they figure it out and stop. A lot of times it is just a player that is trying to take a charge but bails so much that almost no contact takes place and nothing is called. It is clear you have no idea what i call or why i call what i do in a game.

Peace

+1

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you know what I do during a game? And you can disagree all you like, but I do not see this as big of a problem that JVG made it out to be. I am lucky if one player flops in a single game and if they do, when we do not reward them they figure it out and stop. A lot of times it is just a player that is trying to take a charge but bails so much that almost no contact takes place and nothing is called. It is clear you have no idea what I call or why I call what I do in a game.

Peace

if there is contact and it causes that player to fall to the ground, then you should blow the whistle for a foul....that is a foul.

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

because officials do not penalize this deceitful behavior, it will continue because there is no "down-side" to the player....."if I flop and the ref doesn't fall for it, no big deal. if I flop and I get the call, GREAT!"

remember....you promote what you permit. the rules committees AND game officials promote flopping by their lack of action.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you know what I do during a game?...

Peace

btw....i know EXACTLY what you do during a game, because I have worked with you at various levels and in various environments.....

[tref]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if there is contact and it causes that player to fall to the ground, then you should blow the whistle for a foul....that is a foul.

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

because officials do not penalize this deceitful behavior, it will continue because there is no "down-side" to the player....."if I flop and the ref doesn't fall for it, no big deal. if I flop and I get the call, GREAT!"

remember....you promote what you permit. the rules committees AND game officials promote flopping by their lack of action.

Wait a minute, to flop, in & of itself isnt in the rulebook. The technical foul is for faking being fouled not flopping.
I may be wrong (I'm sure someone will point that out sooner than later) but the only place in the rulebook where I recall the word fake is in the free throw section... "the free thrower shall not fake a try."

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?
Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.
If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

How many times have you made a block call & felt like the defender didnt have to do the antics & you would've called the block anyway?

It's a game & in games players should play, sometimes players become actors in the game that they play. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

Far be it for me to get in between the two of you, but this is where I disagree with you.

A player falling does not have to be either a flop or a foul. If, in bracing for imminent contact, the defender leans backwards to the point where he loses his balance, then contact from the offense isn't what causes him to fall. No foul. Remember, the rule is for "faking being fouled," and that's not what happened here, either, so it's nothing.

Most times, this is what happens. It's the same as incidental contact prior to a travel. We have to judge whether the travel (or fall) would have happened without the contact.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

All I can say is if this stuff is happening in every game you work, your area has some issues.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?

Sure.

Originally Posted by tref

Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.

No. The fake means they try to make you think they were fouled when the FOUL never occurred. The rule doesn't say it is illegal to fake contact, but a foul.

Originally Posted by tref

If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

They're not faking contact, they're faking a foul....not he same.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure.

No. The fake means they try to make you think they were fouled when the FOUL never occurred. The rule doesn't say it is illegal to fake contact, but a foul.


They're not faking contact, they're faking a foul....not he same.

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

These players honestly (I think) think they are fouled when their uniform gets brushed by the breeze.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Wait a minute, to flop, in & of itself isnt in the rulebook. The technical foul is for faking being fouled not flopping.
I may be wrong (I'm sure someone will point that out sooner than later) but the only place in the rulebook where I recall the word fake is in the free throw section... "the free thrower shall not fake a try."

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?
Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.
If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

How many times have you made a block call & felt like the defender didnt have to do the antics & you would've called the block anyway?

It's a game & in games players should play, sometimes players become actors in the game that they play. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

Totally agree with you here.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

Yes, it's all about the deception.

Now, do you whack someone who was actually fouled, and is indeed selling the illegal contact more? I sure wouldn't. At the most, I'd talk with the player about it, unless it gets ridiculously repetitive.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

These players honestly (I think) think they are fouled when their uniform gets brushed by the breeze.

Yes. The actions are faked...the dishonesty and deception in trying to make the official believe you were fouled by either totally fabricating or exaggerating the situation are what is unsporting.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes. The actions are faked...the dishonesty and deception in trying to make the official believe you were fouled by either totally fabricating or exaggerating the situation are what is unsporting.

Fabricating is making up something that didnt occur.
Exaggerating is stetching something that did occur.

IJS

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

btw....i know EXACTLY what you do during a game, because I have worked with you at various levels and in various environments.....

Unless you live in Central Illinois and you live in my home town then you could not have worked with me that much. Maybe we have worked together but do not exaggerate what we have done on the court.

Peace