Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless you live in Central Illinois and you live in my home town then you could not have worked with me that much. Maybe we have worked together but do not exaggerate what we have done on the court.

Peace

I'm guessing he's speaking metaphorically.

[Raymond]

The most prevelant example of players faking be fouled are 3-point shooters who fling themselves to the ground when the defender breathes on them.

How many of you "call the T and flopping will stop" grandstanders have ever called a T for it?

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The most prevelant example of players faking be fouled are 3-point shooters who fling themselves to the ground when the defender breathes on them.

How many of you "call the T and flopping will stop" grandstanders have ever called a T for it?

I understand where you're going & I seriously doubt guys are whacking players for that. Many people feel that the acting 3 point shooter put himself in a bad defensive position by laying down & that is penalty enough as everyone is headed the other way.
Cant blame the player for trying, they know if the covering official is watching the flight of the ball, they might get that call. Smart players!

IMO bodies down in the paint is of more concern than a shooter down at the arc.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

Fabricating is making up something that didnt occur.
Exaggerating is stetching something that did occur.

IJS

They're fabricating the FOUL. If you don't call the foul, then it, by definition, didn't occur.
They're exaggerating the CONTACT (which may or may not be a foul).

The rule involves faking a foul. If they actively do something for the purpose of making you think there was a foul and there was no foul, then they have faked the foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The most prevelant example of players faking be fouled are 3-point shooters who fling themselves to the ground when the defender breathes on them.

How many of you "call the T and flopping will stop" grandstanders have ever called a T for it?

Making the statement "call the T and flopping will stop" doesn't mean I'm going to call it. It just means that I believe that if you were to call the T, the flopping would stop.....and it would.

However, I'm not going out there and calling a different game than my peers even if I believe it would solve a problem and make the game better. I don't care to be a pioneer by enforcing a rule that no one else enforces.

[JRutledge]

Again problem is solved if you simply do not call anything. I have told player their acting usually makes me think they were not fouled. Either way the message is sent.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again problem is solved if you simply do not call anything. I have told player their acting usually makes me think they were not fouled. Either way the message is sent.

Peace

Not really... because sometimes they're successful. You might be able to talk them out of continuing that night, but they'll be back at it the next night.

If they're successful once out of several times and there is no penalty for the times they're unsuccessful, there is no deterrence. Why not keep trying. Eventually they'll hook one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not really... because sometimes they're successful. You might be able to talk them out of continuing that night, but they'll be back at it the next night.

If they're successful once out of several times and there is no penalty for the times they're unsuccessful, there is no deterrence. Why not keep trying. Eventually they'll hook one.

So all the times you here "and 1" you see a call made? Isn't that a way to suggest you were fouled?

It is one thing to get one benefit but it is another to try something that barely works. I get it, flopping or embellishing works from time to time. But it often does not work with experienced officials. And at most youth levels kids are not skilled enough to do it effectively. Even college players are not very skilled to do it successfully. This is one of the reasons for years you would see no calls for this and we would complain that train wreaks were not being called at higher levels.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So all the times you here "and 1" you see a call made? Isn't that a way to suggest you were fouled?

It is one thing to get one benefit but it is another to try something that barely works. I get it, flopping or embellishing works from time to time. But it often does not work with experienced officials. And at most youth levels kids are not skilled enough to do it effectively. Even college players are not very skilled to do it successfully. This is one of the reasons for years you would see no calls for this and we would complain that train wreaks were not being called at higher levels.

Peace

Of course not. A statement ("and 1") is not an action. It is asking for a foul. It is not making it appear there was one.

I see enough flops get a call that it is an issue. It would not be in the spotlight as much as it is right now if it were not an issue...even at the top levels.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless you live in Central Illinois and you live in my home town then you could not have worked with me that much. Maybe we have worked together but do not exaggerate what we have done on the court.

Peace

Jeff u live in the Wheaton-area (i live in suburban chicago too), we've attended the same college camps together (even drove together in the same car!), we've worked college games together, we work for the same college/HS assignors, you would recognize my name/face/etc in a second.

I would NEVER think of working games in Central Ill (no matter how they much paid!)...but I know your family lives there so it makes sense for you.

Your love of Michigan is a little much for me, but it's better than being a Hoosier!!!!

btw....I literally know you (and u know me) not metaphorically (it amazes me what so people on this forum create in their own minds).

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Jeff u live in the Wheaton-area (i live in suburban chicago too), we've attended the same college camps together (even drove together in the same car!), we've worked college games together, we work for the same college/HS assignors, you would recognize my name/face/etc in a second.

I would NEVER think of working games in Central Ill (no matter how they much paid!)...but I know your family lives there so it makes sense for you.

Your love of Michigan is a little much for me, but it's better than being a Hoosier!!!!

btw....I literally know you (and u know me) not metaphorically (it amazes me what so people on this forum create in their own minds).

You do realize that Jeff goes by his real name, while you don't - and have no other info about yourself given in your profile. So how is he supposed to recognize you???

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Of course not. A statement ("and 1") is not an action. It is asking for a foul. It is not making it appear there was one.

I see enough flops get a call that it is an issue. It would not be in the spotlight as much as it is right now if it were not an issue...even at the top levels.

So if officials are not recognizing flops and subsequently calling fouls on the opposing players how will calling T's help?

What's really at the core of the problem, refs who don't penalize flops or refs who are not properly ref'n the defense in order to properly judge the play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You do realize that Jeff goes by his real name, while you don't - and have no other info about yourself given in your profile. So how is he supposed to recognize you???

And everything he said is common knowledge. You do not have to be a close friend or ride in a car to know that.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if officials are not recognizing flops and subsequently calling fouls on the opposing players how will calling T's help?

What's really at the core of the problem, refs who don't penalize flops or refs who are not properly ref'n the defense in order to properly judge the play?

Officials ARE recognizing the flops but are not calling the T's. Why? Probably because no one wants to be the only one to do so or they feel the penalty is too harsh...I've suggested a lessor penalty for a flop in the past. Plus, many officials have an aversion to calling T's even when deserved.

Even if you properly referee the defense, you can get fooled by a flop.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Officials ARE recognizing the flops but are not calling the T's. Why? Probably because no one wants to be the only one to do so or they feel the penalty is too harsh...I've suggested a lessor penalty for a flop in the past. Plus, many officials have an aversion to calling T's even when deserved.

Even if you properly referee the defense, you can get fooled by a flop.

Or could it be that the rule is not very well defined?

We cannot even agree what a flop is and the rule does us that language at all as a description for what we are talking about. If the Rules Committees want this to be called they could define the rule much clearer than they have previously. Did anyone think pulling out a jersey was an unsportsmanlike act until the rule added that action as illegal?

Peace