End Of Game: NC State v. North Carolina

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I typically think that PC isn't called enough and is probably the right call on this situation, but no one really commented on the head and shoulders past the defense part. What do you think?

How in the world is his head and shoulders beyond the defender?

All the contact was in the chest, not in the side of the shoulder. I think you are reading too much into the rule if that is your claim for a block IMO.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I typically think that PC isn't called enough and is probably the right call on this situation, but no one really commented on the head and shoulders past the defense part. What do you think?

Head and shoulders is a rule of thumb. There's no way I'm punishing a defender with position just because the dribbler turned himself into a pretzel.

[dahoopref]

Play starts in the T's area and moves into the L's primary area of coverage; not a secondary defender. L appears to have a wide/open look.

In plays like this that have happened to me in the past, if I'm the T and I don't stay connected to the play, I'm trusting the L will make the call....any call. During the pre-game, I tell my crew if a player(s) is on the floor we have to know why he is down there on the floor.

If an evaluator comes in after the game and asks what happened, the L is gonna have to "man-up" and explain his non-call. In any case, I'm gonna trust my partner that the "no-call" at that time was the right decision.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Play starts in the T's area and moves into the L's primary area of coverage; not a secondary defender. L appears to have a wide/open look.

In plays like this that have happened to me in the past, if I'm the T and I don't stay connected to the play, I'm trusting the L will make the call....any call. During the pre-game, I tell my crew if a player(s) is on the floor we have to know why he is down there on the floor.

If an evaluator comes in after the game and asks what happened, the L is gonna have to "man-up" and explain his non-call. In any case, I'm gonna trust my partner that the "no-call" at that time was the right decision.

Oh, so you will hang you partner(s) out to dry?

Play starts in your area, you will pass it off on someone whom may be working off ball looking for a secondary defender to come into the picture.

Then if an evaluator comes and question the call the L will have to "man up" How about the person where the play originated from "MAN UP" and say. I did not stay with the play until there was a change in status of the ball (pass, shot, or foul) have taken place.

Unbelieveable!!! IMO

[jearef]

In my opinion, the dribbler clearly initiates contact in order to create space so he can get off the shot. An obvious advantage is gained. It's a game-changer and a clear player control foul. Especially given the situation, someone has to have a whistle.

The unfortunate thing is that with the Hess ejections of a few weeks ago, the NC State fans are going to start talking about conspiracy. Obviously a bunch of baloney, but we all know it's coming.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by jearef

The unfortunate thing is that with the Hess ejections of a few weeks ago, the NC State fans are going to start talking about conspiracy. Obviously a bunch of baloney, but we all know it's coming.

Well Brian Dorsey didn't exactly help quell the conspiracy theorists at all...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Oh, so you will hang you partner(s) out to dry?

Play starts in your area, you will pass it off on someone whom may be working off ball looking for a secondary defender to come into the picture.

Then if an evaluator comes and question the call the L will have to "man up" How about the person where the play originated from "MAN UP" and say. I did not stay with the play until there was a change in status of the ball (pass, shot, or foul) have taken place.

Unbelieveable!!! IMO

I'm not sure I get this -- this decision is clearly in the L's primary and in the men's game I'd be shocked if they pregamed this as anything other than the L taking this all the way. Lead is king on these.

I've been in the same position on a play like this and it's not a trivial thing for the T to come all the way down there to grab that one.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm not sure I get this -- this decision is clearly in the L's primary and in the men's game I'd be shocked if they pregamed this as anything other than the L taking this all the way. Lead is king on these.

I've been in the same position on a play like this and it's not a trivial thing for the T to come all the way down there to grab that one.

Rich, The issue I have is. From my perspective we pass off the responsibility of plays which begins in our area. This is where the start, develop, finish comes into play. The official should mainitain it until the status of the play changes.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Oh, so you will hang you partner(s) out to dry?

Play starts in your area, you will pass it off on someone whom may be working off ball looking for a secondary defender to come into the picture.

Then if an evaluator comes and question the call the L will have to "man up" How about the person where the play originated from "MAN UP" and say. I did not stay with the play until there was a change in status of the ball (pass, shot, or foul) have taken place.

Unbelieveable!!! IMO

I'd be incline to side with you if there was a secondary defender entering the L's area. Can you tell me if there is one?

From what I see from the clip, the T has a "closed look" when the contact happens while the L has the best view with an "open look." If I'm the T, I'm gonna trust the L has the correct position to make the right decision. If I come in with a whistle after the no-call, chances are from my view as the T that I'd be guessing since the defender was moving backward playing defense before the contact happens.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I'd be incline to side with you if there was a secondary defender entering the L's area. Can you tell me if there is one?

From what I see from the clip, the T has a "closed look" when the contact happens while the L has the best view with an "open look." If I'm the T, I'm gonna trust the L has the correct position to make the right decision. If I come in with a whistle after the no-call, chances are from my view as the T that I'd be guessing since the defender was moving backward playing defense before the contact happens.

I cannot tell you that. If the T look is closed all he have to do is move his feet to maintain a positive look by stepping down towards the endline.

The L could also be thinking. I trust my T to stay with the play until the status change because it came from his area understanding the SDF concept.

For me, I stay with the play until the status change when it starts in my primary. I will also explain if questioned. The one thing I will not due is say a the L better "Man up" explain it.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Originally I was thinking PC but looking at the under the basket view I think the offensive player got his head and shoulders past the defender...

It's tough. I think it looks this way from the end line view because the contact already took place and the defender is falling backwards.

I didn't see the game but I respect Len Elmore as an analyst when it comes to the rules. Apart from the fact I thought it was a PC, if he says they put whistles on similar plays earlier in the game I'd like to think there would've been a whistle there as well.

[stiffler3492]

Anyone hear what Digger Phelps said on Sportscenter after this game? It won't surprise anyone...

"Good officials in that situation let 'em play".

Wow. Just wow.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Anyone hear what Digger Phelps said on Sportscenter after this game? It won't surprise anyone...

"Good officials in that situation let 'em play".

Wow. Just wow.

My favorite comeback to "let 'em play" was during last year's Butler/Florida game in the NCAAs between Len Elmore and Reggie Miller. SB Nation broke it down:

With just under five minutes to go in the game, Butler's Andrew Smith picked up an offensive foul hooking Alex Tyus in the post. Miller evidently felt it was a bad call. Elmore didn't, and neither backed down.

ELMORE: These are the kinds of fouls that drive a coach nuts. (Replay shows). You got good position right here, now watch him put his hand around his back right here ...
MILLER (interrupting): Oh, come on.
ELMORE: You can't do it.
MILLER: Come on.
ELMORE: You can't do it. You got to call what you see.
MILLER: Come on now Len.
ELMORE: You sit down, spread out, put him on your back. You don't need to reach around like that.
MILLER: That's not a hook. That's him getting position
ELMORE: But that's him putting his hand behind a guy's back.
GUS JOHNSON (interrupting): According to John Adams, a foul is a foul. You call what you see.
ELMORE (repeating): You call what you see.
REGGIE (a few seconds later): Let these kids play. Let them play. Let them decide.
ELMORE: Let them play fundamentally-sound though. That's not fundamentally sound.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

My favorite comeback to "let 'em play" was during last year's Butler/Florida game in the NCAAs between Len Elmore and Reggie Miller. SB Nation broke it down:

Miller is still close to being a player. Elmore was a player and been removed from that part of the game a long time. Also he does not call NBA games like Miller, where it is sport to rip the officials for everything. Elmore is a lawyer and was a prosecutor. I am sure he looks at these things differently because of that background. Not that the rules are the same as law, but what is written can mean something.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Anyone hear what Digger Phelps said on Sportscenter after this game? It won't surprise anyone...

"Good officials in that situation let 'em play".

Wow. Just wow.

I thought he was gonna punch Fran Frashilla (sp)! Fran kept saying that by NOT calling the PC the officials were NOT letting the players decide the game bc there was good defense played. It got pretty heated and made me think more of Fran and less of Digger!
IMO you have to put that play and call/no call in context of the earlier similar play.