Flop

[Scrapper1]

You don't have to picture anything. If you move to a different position after I'm airborne, you're responsible for any contact that occurs.

"If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor."

[Art N]

[QUOTE=Scrapper1;826616]Block. Once a player is airborne, if the defensive player moves to a new spot, the defender is responsible for the contact.

That is NOT entirely true! If you are picturing B1 sliding sideways under an airborne A1, yes, but I don't believe that is we have been talking about.

Once LPG has been initially established, he/she may move sideways, obliquely, and backwards to guard a player. If A1 is driving to the hoop and goes airborne and B1, who is in front of him and had LGP, then moves backwards and gets croaked (even if B1 is moving) it is a PC foul all the way. Too many coaches and newbie refs think B1 can't be moving at all! Another MYTH.

[Art N]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You don't have to picture anything. If you move to a different position after I'm airborne, you're responsible for any contact that occurs.

"If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor."

Not true. I can back up and be moving and if you croak me, there better be a PC foul. If I'm the defensive coach, I am getting a T called on me if you call that a block b/c you kicked the call big time and my player could have gotten hurt as well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You don't have to picture anything. If you move to a different position after I'm airborne, you're responsible for any contact that occurs.

"If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor."

And you're saying that LGP goes out the window with an airborne shooter?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think you're reading way too much into this wording.

If the defender hasn't done anything illegal, and hasn't done anything to lose LGP, then I don't see how a block can be called.

The only thing we're talking about him doing illegal is potentially faking a foul. If it's that obvious, warn or call the T. If it's not obvious, then I'd say it's a PC or nothing.

If your local leadership wants a block as the warning for a flop, then do that, but let's not pretend there's rule backing. This is sort of like making the wrong OOB call to save a foul; do it if you must, but call it what it is.

Ok, maybe we're not that far apart.

First, I was backing Scrapper's opinion with the specific rule. You ask what did B1 do wrong? 4-23-4(b) is pretty specific, and it does not differentiate between a player having LGP or not. If B1 did not get to A1's landing spot before A1 leaves the floor, it's a block on B1. You're the one that seems to be reading more into the rule - you seem to be advocating that the wording doesn't apply if B1 established LGP first, and the rule doesn't state that.

My point was while I agree with Scrapper on that point, it would have to be fairly obvious that B1 got the landing spot after A1 leaves the floor, and before A1 lands. B1 standing or laying on the floor doesn't matter. I think we agree on that. I think we also agree that if B1 slides to the landing spot before A1 leaves the floor, it cannot be a block. Or when A1 lands, then trips or falls over B1 on the floor, it cannot be a block on B1, because they got to that spot first.

All I was disagreeing with was the opinion that it will be a block on B1 because there was contact after falling backwards and attempting to fake being fouled. If B1 has and maintains LGP throughout the play, B1 did nothing wrong, except if B1 gets to airborne A1's landing spot after A1 leaves the ground and before they land.

[Art N]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And you're saying that LGP goes out the window with an airborne shooter?

I agree with you, I think that is what he is saying.
This is killing me!
I never thought a flop post would go more than two pages...

[Adam]

Slightly different play again:
B1 sprinting down on D to get into position. Turns, and establishes LGP just before A1 takes off.
B1 never really gets stopped, though, and takes a couple of steps backwards due to momentum while A1 is in the air.
Had he not moved, A1 would have contacted him almost immediately after takeoff; but the movement delayed contact by about half a second.

Who calls a block because B1 got to a "different spot" after A1 was airborne?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, maybe we're not that far apart.

First, I was backing Scrapper's opinion with the specific rule. You ask what did B1 do wrong? 4-23-4(b) is pretty specific, and it does not differentiate between a player having LGP or not. If B1 did not get to A1's landing spot before A1 leaves the floor, it's a block on B1. You're the one that seems to be reading more into the rule - you seem to be advocating that the wording doesn't apply if B1 established LGP first, and the rule doesn't state that.

One rule obviously doesn't apply here. We have to decide which.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Art N

If A1 is driving to the hoop and goes airborne and B1, who is in front of him and had LGP, then moves backwards and gets croaked (even if B1 is moving) it is a PC foul all the way.

Originally Posted by Art N

Not true. I can back up and be moving and if you croak me, there better be a PC foul.

You keep saying this same thing over and over. (I especially like the croaking part. ) And if we are talking about a dribbler or a stationary player, then you'd be right. But the rule specifically says:

"If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor."

When guarding an airborne player, you have to be at the point of contact BEFORE the player leaves the ground, even if that point of contact is directly backwards from where you were before the opponent left the ground.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

When guarding an airborne player, you have to be at the point of contact BEFORE the player leaves the ground,

It doesn't say that.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

One rule obviously doesn't apply here. We have to decide which.

The points regarding maintaining LGP are in 4-23-3, however, the only mention of an airborne player with the ball is in a different section, 4-23-4. This tells me an airborne player is to be ruled differently than simply maintaing LGP.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The points regarding maintaining LGP are in 4-23-3, however, the only mention of an airborne player with the ball is in a different section, 4-23-4. This tells me an airborne player is to be ruled differently than simply maintaing LGP.

I agree with you and with Scrappy-Doo. Once airborne, the defender can't move himself into a new spot hoping to get landed on...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I agree with you and with Scrappy-Doo. Once airborne, the defender can't move himself into a new spot hoping to get landed on...

The cookies in our group are obviously better quality than the other group's cookies...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The points regarding maintaining LGP are in 4-23-3, however, the only mention of an airborne player with the ball is in a different section, 4-23-4. This tells me an airborne player is to be ruled differently than simply maintaing LGP.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I agree with you and with Scrappy-Doo. Once airborne, the defender can't move himself into a new spot hoping to get landed on...

So what's your ruling?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Slightly different play again:
B1 sprinting down on D to get into position. Turns, and establishes LGP just before A1 takes off.
B1 never really gets stopped, though, and takes a couple of steps backwards due to momentum while A1 is in the air.
Had he not moved, A1 would have contacted him almost immediately after takeoff; but the movement delayed contact by about half a second.

Who calls a block because B1 got to a "different spot" after A1 was airborne?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So what's your ruling?

As described, block. If I would've called a PC, it may have been a call I could sell, but it would be wrong, by rule.

I would've answered sooner, but I was cleaning cookie crumbs out of my keyboard.