Cross Reffing

[fletch_irwin_m]

Which is better then cross dressing, however after these posts of officials in fish nets and black spike heals, I begin to wonder!
Just got back from the Mid South camp and had a good experience. Coming from a high school officiating back ground it took awhile to adjust to the floor coverage responsibilities. I kept following the ball to the baseline when I was trail, big no no. I also had some problems with the "report while you walk" mechanic. I have spent so much time stationary in front of the mirror working on the mechanics it was hard to break the habit of standing still while reporting. I reverted back to the old "Not being big enough" and "Being in a hurry" problems I spent a long time ironing out. But it is nice to know what to work on.
Does anyone else "cross ref"? (Just made that term up) That is to say officiate boys hs or college AND women's college? If so what difficulties have you run into? I am not sure where I will end up next year, I am just hoping to get a kicking HS Varsity schedule (our assignor LOVES when we go to camp and it reflects in our schedule) but I did get a "look" from a DIII conference in our area. I just want to konw what to be prepared for. Thanks

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
I also had some problems with the "report while you walk" mechanic. I have spent so much time stationary in front of the mirror working on the mechanics it was hard to break the habit of standing still while reporting.

Around here, most people have a hard time standing still to report, so I can't sympathize.

You said, you need to know how to adjust. Does that mean you got picked up on the college side?!?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m


I kept following the ball to the baseline when I was trail, big no no.

My question is this, what is wrong with that? In many situations the trail is the only one that is going to see the entire play and needs to take the ball to the hoop. Especially if you are doing NF and NCAA Men's Mechanics.

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m

Does anyone else "cross ref"? (Just made that term up) That is to say officiate boys hs or college AND women's college? If so what difficulties have you run into? I am not sure where I will end up next year, I am just hoping to get a kicking HS Varsity schedule (our assignor LOVES when we go to camp and it reflects in our schedule) but I did get a "look" from a DIII conference in our area. I just want to konw what to be prepared for. Thanks

I have in the same week worked a HS Boy's game, then done a NCAA Women's game, then the next night officiate a Junior College Men's game. Yes, that can be difficult. You have different mechanics, philosophy and different type of officials to worry about. Because when doing an NCAA Women's game, it can be hard to not start a 10 second count in the backcourt. Better yet remember that you can have a 5 second count in the backcourt. It is even going to be more difficult with the new 3 feet rule in Women's college for those officials that do this too. And the biggest thing to worry about and can affect your career is the perception. Men's College do not want to see "Women Officials," and Women's Officials do not like to see "Men Officials" in many situations. Because then the coaches will start telling the evaluators (and their comments can affect your career on many levels) that you call a "women's game," or a "men's game," and that is not acceptable in many eyes.

Peace

[fletch_irwin_m]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m


I kept following the ball to the baseline when I was trail, big no no.

My question is this, what is wrong with that? In many situations the trail is the only one that is going to see the entire play and needs to take the ball to the hoop. Especially if you are doing NF and NCAA Men's Mechanics.


It wasn't so much on the dribble to the basket, I still followed that in if it came from above the FT line. But darn if the ball didn't get passed below the FT line and there I go following it down there. Like I said, by the end of camp I was getting the hang of it. What I also found amazing was those couple of feet from the 3 point line and the sideline which was now Leads primary.
I am not worried about our associations "biased". For me to ascend to college ranks on the men's side would be very difficult around here. However it looks like I have a chance to make some ground on the Women's side so that is where I am leaning.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m

It wasn't so much on the dribble to the basket, I still followed that in if it came from above the FT line. But darn if the ball didn't get passed below the FT line and there I go following it down there. Like I said, by the end of camp I was getting the hang of it.

You also want to make sure that your partner picks up the coverage before you completely leave it. So that is sometimes acceptable, but I would also have to know more about the play you are discribing to know for sure.

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m

What I also found amazing was those couple of feet from the 3 point line and the sideline which was now Leads primary.

Well that is the Women's coverage area for ya. The NF is a bit different and takes some getting used to when you switch back and forth.[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m

I am not worried about our associations "biased". For me to ascend to college ranks on the men's side would be very difficult around here. However it looks like I have a chance to make some ground on the Women's side so that is where I am leaning.

Well that is the attitude of many I know too. They feel like it is too hard or too competitive to advance on the Men's side. I do not know if it is any tougher, but I do here that a lot. I guess I am rather young and feel that a chance to move up will happen. But that is me.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I do here that a lot.

Do you also where that a lot?

[fletch_irwin_m]

I guess the bottom line is "they" are looking for a certain type of official on the men's side. Someone sleek and athletic looking or very muscle bound of which I am neither. While this does not mean that I view the women's side as a dumping ground for old fat ref's, there is room for those of us who may not have the athletcism they are looking for on the men's side. I am perfectly fine with this and recognize my strengths and weaknesses and if things work out on the women's side I will be extatic. I am a big believer of knowing your strengths and capitalizing on them.

[Andy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Do you also where that a lot?

Chuck...will you ever learn?!?

(prepare for a 4 page thread!)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
I guess the bottom line is "they" are looking for a certain type of official on the men's side. Someone sleek and athletic looking or very muscle bound of which I am neither. While this does not mean that I view the women's side as a dumping ground for old fat ref's, there is room for those of us who may not have the athletcism they are looking for on the men's side.

I do not agree with that at all. I do not see any D1 NCAA Official as "fat" or not with athletic abilities. Now of course there are always exceptions, but I know some of the more successful Women's officials in my area, and they are rather muscular and well built. Or at the very least, they are thin looking, but not fat. Maybe at the lower college levels there are more "fat" officials, but not as you move up that letter.

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m

I am perfectly fine with this and recognize my strengths and weaknesses and if things work out on the women's side I will be extatic. I am a big believer of knowing your strengths and capitalizing on them.

No issue with that.

Peace

[LSams]

I work both HS and Women's college. My experience has been the more ball I work the better I get -- both levels. The only "problem" I have in "cross-reffing" is this. Being "C" opposite the table and having a foul called by one of my partners. My instinct from HS ball and the old women's mechanics is to go table side to replace the calling official, but with the new mechanics I'm supposed to stay put.

For the record I'm 31 years old, 6 feet tall 185 pounds, I'm not chisled but fit -- and do not consider women's college ball the dumping ground for old fat refs. -- I just want to call games -- so welcome each opportunity that comes your way.

[fletch_irwin_m]

JR
I think we are saying the same thing just differently. I do not see very many "fat" D1 officials, but they are out there. I think it is bad for the game and profession to have "fat" people running up and down the court. Maybe I can phrase it like this: If you rate yourself a 10 on the athleticism scale, your chances of making D1 mens OR women's is good. If you rate yourself an 8 then your men's side chances go down more then the women's side. Being an 8 probably means that you are still pretty athletic, but may be a step slower then a 9 or 10. I would rate myself about a 6.5 or 7 because I need to lose about 10 to 15 more pounds (Hey I have already lost 35) but I can still get up and down the court, have very good cardio, but know for a fact I am not fleet of foot so I hustle my butt off. Once I drop the weight which in turn will cause more toneness I should fit close to the mold "they" are looking for on the women's side. Plus, I think I will really like doing the women's side as much if not more then the men's side. (Preference I know)

[Mlancaster]

I have also been "cross reffing" for the past 10 years or so...... HS and Women's college. I have greatly decreased the amount of college ball I ref in the last 2 years...economics, travel, etc.....Which has led to the biggest problem:
It is very difficult to ref 3 HS assignments (6 games) a week and fill in 2 or 3 college games a month. With the differences in court coverages and mechanics, I find that the 1st half of a college game is spent "thinking" too much about these differences, which detracts from concentrating on the game.....This is not fair to the players or my partners.
The lesson: It's time to either give up the college game or go back to a 50/50 split, so that both come naturally.

Then it's back to economics- Do I really want to drive 2-3 hours 1-way for $100-$150??????????

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Mlancaster
The lesson: It's time to either give up the college game or go back to a 50/50 split, so that both come naturally.

The real lesson is for the basketball community to at least try and move more towards standardization of the rules. Something not to bet the farm on.

Here in Canada, at one point, you could conceivably ref with FIBA, NCAA Mens, and NFHS rules all in one week.

What gets me is that none of the rules differences (esp. between NCAA Men/Women) seem to have any rationale behind them, except to try and be different.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

The real lesson is for the basketball community to at least try and move more towards standardization of the rules. Something not to bet the farm on.

Here in Canada, at one point, you could conceivably ref with FIBA, NCAA Mens, and NFHS rules all in one week.

What gets me is that none of the rules differences (esp. between NCAA Men/Women) seem to have any rationale behind them, except to try and be different.

I'm just glad that the NFHS has the same rules for Boys/Girls. Of course, some states go and mess that up by adding differences for them.

I would like to see the NHFS and NCAA M+W combine their rulesets and mechanics. The different mechanics are simply that, different. I don't thing any one is better than the other. The rules are so close that most people (players and coaches included) don't know the differences. The only "real" obstacle in that would be changes that cost money. The NCAA could more easily require costly changes on colleges than the NFHS can on HS's. All other obstacles are emotional or turf wars (I doubt the NCAA Men's or Women's committees would be willing to give up autonomy).

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 10th, 2003 at 12:43 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


I'm just glad that the NFHS has the same rules for Boys/Girls. Of course, some states go and mess that up by adding differences for them.

I would like to see the NHFS and NCAA M+W combine their rulesets and mechanics. The different mechanics are simply that, different. I don't think any one is better than the other. The rules are so close that most people (players and coaches included) don't know the differences. The only "real" obstacle in that would be changes that cost money. The NCAA could more easily require costly changes on colleges than the NFHS can on HS's. All other obstacles are emotional or turf wars (I doubt the NCAA Men's or Women's committees would be willing to give up autonomy).

We had this discussion before, but if the officials were making the decisions on these committees, then we might not have as many rules differences in the first place. Better yet, we might not have as many changes every year. These differences come from coaches and mostly from coaches. And someone is going to tell me that "in my state we have a representative that is an official." Well that is all fine and dandy, but when I look at the NF Committee I see coaches and administrators. Who cares if there is one official on any of these committees. That one official is not going to out vote 10 coaches that have never put on a whistle in a game in their life. There is no language in the rulebook saying "moving screen," but these wonderful people put it in the POEs for the past two years (NF). Now the NCAA Women's Committee in there wonderful wisdom changes the closely guarded rule yet again and the Men put in another lane variation. And I know all these people have to realize that you have officials working both HS and college to some extent who are going to be confused from one night to the next. Everything is not about D1, I hope they realize that. But this is why all the confusion. Coaches should not be making rules changes, without an significant imput from officials. But that would be a fantasy.

Peace