knee travel

[phansen]

NFHS

A1 and B1 scramble for a loose ball. A1 gains possession while on his knees but is off balance and falls to the floor. Is this a travel? 4.44 discusses trying to get up after being on the floor and what you can do while on the floor. I tend to think this is a travel, just looking for confirmation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by phansen

NFHS

A1 and B1 scramble for a loose ball. A1 gains possession while on his knees but is off balance and falls to the floor. Is this a travel? 4.44 discusses trying to get up after being on the floor and what you can do while on the floor. I tend to think this is a travel, just looking for confirmation.

Yes, this is traveling.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by phansen

NFHS

A1 and B1 scramble for a loose ball. A1 gains possession while on his knees but is off balance and falls to the floor. Is this a travel? 4.44 discusses trying to get up after being on the floor and what you can do while on the floor. I tend to think this is a travel, just looking for confirmation.

No, it's not travelling. IT's travelling to have other than the hands or feet touch the floor after gaining posession. But, it's not traveliing to gain posession with something other than the hands or feet and then have soemtiing else touch the floor.

[kkrenzke]

Gotta call the travel on this one, falling and then passing would be considered an "advantage gained."

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this is traveling.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,
Can you help me out with your thinking on this? In the illustrated Rules it shows a guy leaning over while standing with the ball and touching the floor with the ball and this is not traveling. How come going from the knees to the floor is?

[PG_Ref]

4-44

ART. 5

A player holding the ball:

a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.

b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

If a player gains control of the ball while already on the floor, what part of the travel rule is being violated?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

4-44

ART. 5

A player holding the ball:

a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.

b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

If a player gains control of the ball while already on the floor, what part of the travel rule is being violated?

The rule shows that Bob is correct: if it's not prohibited, it's allowed.

A player who is touching the floor with something other than hands and feet ("on the floor") has a different set of prohibitions. Such players may not (a) roll over or (b) try to get up or stand.

The rule states explicitly that a player on the floor may sit up. For those who want to call a travel here: are you saying that if a knee touches the floor while a player is sitting up, you're going to call a travel?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No, it's not travelling. It's travelling to have other than the hands or feet touch the floor after gaining posession. But, it's not traveling to gain posession with something other than the hands or feet and then have someething else touch the floor.

Bob:

I think that this may be a situation that can best be described as HTBT. That said. My reasoning for my ruling is this:

Lets look at a couple plays:

1) A1 has both feet on the floor but is off balance when he gains control of the ball and continues to fall and lands on his tuchus. His feet never move but we have traveling none-the-less.

2) A1 has gains control of the ball while both of his knees are in contact with the floor but is not off balance. The then moves one or both of his knees along the floor without raising either knee off of the floor. Again, we have traveling.

I believe the "falling off balance" is the key to the OP. I do believe that one could advance the argument that A1's actions could be construed as diving for a loose ball while already on the floor and his momentum caused him to have the rest of his body land on the floor, similar to a player's momentum caused him to slid or roll along the floor.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

Mark,
Can you help me out with your thinking on this? In the illustrated Rules it shows a guy leaning over while standing with the ball and touching the floor with the ball and this is not traveling. How come going from the knees to the floor is?

The play you are referencing has nothing to do with the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The play you are referencing has nothing to do with the OP.

MTD, Sr.

Uhmmmm, neither do the two situations you posted.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The play you are referencing has nothing to do with the OP.

MTD, Sr.

Correct,
I thought maybe you were thinking of this situation when you made your first post.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The rule shows that Bob is correct: if it's not prohibited, it's allowed.

A player who is touching the floor with something other than hands and feet ("on the floor") has a different set of prohibitions. Such players may not (a) roll over or (b) try to get up or stand.

The rule states explicitly that a player on the floor may sit up. For those who want to call a travel here: are you saying that if a knee touches the floor while a player is sitting up, you're going to call a travel?

Yes, because I can't think of a legal way for a player to go from lying down to sitting up with a knee hitting the floor.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Uhmmmm, neither do the two situations you posted.

Yes they do.

MTD, Sr.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes they do.

MTD, Sr.

Oh.

OK.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes they do.

No, they don't.

You wrote, "I believe the "falling off balance" is the key to the OP."

The rule says absolutely nothing about "falling off balance."

Maybe it should be raveling but as presently written, it's not against the rules.

You're making stuff up here, Mark. C'mon, at least take a rule and try to spin it to support your stand.