Backcourt Violation Question

[Duffman]

Great forum, I'm glad I found it. I had a back court violation situation come up a few weeks ago and wanted to get your take on it.

A1 is in backcourt being pressured by B1. A1 attempts to pass the ball into the front court where it is first deflected by B2 and a scramble ensues. During the scramble A2 is moving toward half court from the top of the key and gains control of the ball near midcourt with one hand by pushing it to the floor and dribbling away. During that first dribble the ball literally landed on the mid court stripe and the player I ruled back court as the ball and A2 had front court status, and A2 gained player (and team control for A) on the first dribble.

A's HC argued that control couldn't possibly exist on the first "dribble" and therefore it shouldn't have been a back court. I viewed A2 as having control of the ball beginning with the very first tap to the floor.

Thoughs?

[Adam]

A2 doesn't need to gain player control for the violation.

Team control is already in place. B2's touch establishes FC status. A2's initial touch is still in the FC. When his dribble hits the BC, it's a violation.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A2 doesn't need to gain player control for the violation.

Team control is already in place. B2's touch establishes FC status. A2's initial touch is still in the FC. When his dribble hits the BC, it's a violation.

Am I mistaken in thinking that for a BCV to occur there must first be team control in the FC?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Am I mistaken in thinking that for a BCV to occur there must first be team control in the FC?

There must be team control in the FC. There doesn't need to be player control in the FC, however.

[Duffman]

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

I'm not sure, but I think you're confusing player control and team control.

PC is required to establish TC; but not to maintain it. While A1's pass to A2 is in the air, TC continues.

TC must be in place.
The ball must gain FC status (it did this in your play when B2 touched it).
The team in control must be the last to touch it before it goes to the BC (A2's bat).
The team in control must be the first to touch it after it goes to the BC (A2's touch after the bat).

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

No. All that matters is that there is team control, it doesn't matter which side of the court.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

No. Yes.

If there's TC in the BC, and the ball reaches the FC, then there's "TC in the FC". This can happen even if no one touches the ball in the FC. It can also happen if a player touches (but does not control) the ball in the FC.

There does NOT need to be PC in the FC to have a BC violation, or to establish "TC in the FC."

Some like to combine the 4 criteria (listed by APG in post 4, I think) into 3 (with the first being "TC in the FC"). Your confusion shows why I think it's better to separate them.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A2 doesn't need to gain player control for the violation.

Team control is already in place. B2's touch establishes FC status. A2's initial touch is still in the FC. When his dribble hits the BC, it's a violation.

Are you sure about that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you sure about that?

I debated this when I typed it, and figured someone would question it. I'm not positive, but under the principal that a dribbler is OOB when he steps on the OOB line even if it's not at the same moment he's in contact with the ball, I think so. I see it as continuous control, just like the OOB play.

That said, you really don't know it's a dribble until he touches it again, so in practice, it won't be called until he touches it after that bounce.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I debated this when I typed it, and figured someone would question it. I'm not positive, but under the principal that a dribbler is OOB when he steps on the OOB line even if it's not at the same moment he's in contact with the ball, I think so. I see it as continuous control, just like the OOB play.

That said, you really don't know it's a dribble until he touches it again, so in practice, it won't be called until he touches it after that bounce.

One huge difference in the out of bounds play and the backcourt play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I debated this when I typed it, and figured someone would question it. I'm not positive, but under the principal that a dribbler is OOB when he steps on the OOB line even if it's not at the same moment he's in contact with the ball, I think so. I see it as continuous control, just like the OOB play.

That said, you really don't know it's a dribble until he touches it again, so in practice, it won't be called until he touches it after that bounce.

You're now going the same direction as I'm thinking.

The backcourt rule has no dependence on player control. It is not a violation to cause the ball to be in the backcourt at any time (with or without player control). It only depends on being the first to touch the ball after it has gone to the backcourt (assuming the other criteria have already been met). That would be when the dribble returned to the hand.

On a related situation....what if a PLAYER stepped on the division line between dribbles, then, resumes contact only with the FC before dribbling again. Does the ball ever gain backcourt status?

Refer to the definition of ball location (Rule 4-4). Rule 9-3-1 NOTE makes it a violation for a dribbler to step OOB but I don't see anywhere that says the concept applies to the division line. Does it? By the letter of the rules, it seems that the ball is only in the backcourt when it is actually in contact the backcourt directly or with a player who currently has backcourt status by either being in contact with the backcourt or being airborne having jumped from the backcourt).

By practice and common sense, I feel the OOB NOTE probably should apply to the division line as well, but I don't think the rules, as written, necessarily support that.

[APG]

The four criteria for a backcourt violation (NCAA and NFHS):

1. Team control (and initial player control when coming from a throw-in)
2. Ball achieves a front court status
3. Team in control is last to touch the ball before the ball achieves a backcourt status
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after the ball achieves a backcourt status.

A2 didn't need to establish player control. As soon as A2 touched the ball, he gave the ball frontcourt status. We still have team control because TC continues during passing activity. A2 then was the first to touched the ball after it gained a backcourt status (by virtue of batting the ball to the division line), and was the first to touch the ball after it achieved a backcourt status.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Great forum, I'm glad I found it. I had a back court violation situation come up a few weeks ago and wanted to get your take on it.

A1 is in backcourt being pressured by B1. A1 attempts to pass the ball into the front court where it is first deflected by B2 and a scramble ensues. During the scramble A2 is moving toward half court from the top of the key and gains control of the ball near midcourt with one hand by pushing it to the floor and dribbling away. During that first dribble the ball literally landed on the mid court stripe and the player I ruled back court as the ball and A2 had front court status, and A2 gained player (and team control for A) on the first dribble.

A's HC argued that control couldn't possibly exist on the first "dribble" and therefore it shouldn't have been a back court. I viewed A2 as having control of the ball beginning with the very first tap to the floor.

Thoughs?

I had to re-read this a few times. I fail to see when the ball goes into the frontcourt. Does A1 actually pass the ball into the FC, or as you stated, he attempted to, but failed?

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Toren

I had to re-read this a few times. I fail to see when the ball goes into the frontcourt. Does A1 actually pass the ball into the FC, or as you stated, he attempted to, but failed?

A1 (in the BC) attempts to pass the ball to A2 (in the FC). The ball is deflected by B2 (in the FC) giving the ball FC status. The ball is now loose in the FC when A3 gains control using a dribble which strikes the mid court line.