Technical Fouls???

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Some states allow an open book test to suffice for a set number of years for new officials; but those officials don't tend to get varsity schedules.

Whoa! I dont want to work in those states.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

That is exactly what I believed to be correct, however it seems to conflict with this...

10.5.3 SITUATION:

A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game.

RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

There's no conflict when you understand when it is a player becomes bench personnel.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I agree whole heartedly with most of this. I guess I disagree that knowing wether or not a bench player illegally entering and playing in a game after he's been disqualified is a direct t or an indirect t is "basic".

IMO, if you know enough that to know a certain act is a T than you need to know whether it's direct or indirect. It's an indication that you are getting your rules knowledge from hearsay or what have seen when watching games instead of getting the knowledge from the rule book.

I believe you said you are working HS varsity games, right? If you are, knowledge of what is an direct or indirect T should be basic.

There's also the other addage, If you can't enforce it then don't call it.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Huh? I would think that (almost) anyone could pass (assuming that's 70% or so) an open book test even if they had never officiated before.

I have worked with a guy that didn't pass the open book test, he was passed due to a shortage of officials. I have heard of guys that didn't pass the test as well.

To acquire the classification to do varsity is closed book and a mechanics test. No mechanics test required for first years though.( the aforementioned guy wouldn't of passed that either.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by tref

Bingo! This pertains to the original sitch you posted.






An open book test, even the 1st time? Thats quite suspect...

Suspect away I guess...

Again I understand my first post was incorrect. My line of thinking was that the disqualified player was bench personnel which the HC is ultimately responsible for and therefore would be given an indirect T. Since then I have learned (which is the reason we having these discussions) that it is actually a direct T. I greatly appreciate the poster who posted the applicable rule earlier in this conversation.

Now if you want to sit here and argue that the above is what you consider "basic knowledge" that's fine I guess, but it's something we are going to have to disagree about. I've worked roughly 40 official dates a year (most of which are double headers) including two full seasons of varsity assignments as part of a 3 man crew, and a little bit of D3 college JV action and I have yet to encounter this situation, or anything remotely close to it occurring. That doesn't include the multiple officials camps and youth tournaments in which I frequently work 5-8 games per date. I'm aware that pales to the experience some of you likely have but that doesn't change the fact that I haven't seen it in three years, and therefore I don't consider that something "basic". I'm thankful I'm learning the finer points about my avocation here as opposed to on the court after I've screwed them up.

Lastly I'm glad you have, and are confident in, a solid foundation of rulebook knowledge. That's a great thing to have as strength. One of my partners also has an encyclopedic knowledge of the book, and he pulls our *** out of the fire once or twice a year. My personal strength is in game management and comes from my background of 12 years as a player (10 years as a youth and HS standout and 2 years as a division 2 benchwarmer) and 13 years as a coach. Personally there is no greater comfort than knowing there is no behavior that goes on in game, either on the floor or on the bench, which I can't handle. That's something that can't be learned from a rule book.

Rulebook knowledge is a tremendous asset, but it’s not the only asset, and it alone doesn’t make you a great official. Please understand I am in no way implying that you don’t also have game management skills.

[SNIPERBBB]

I hope you have also learned under the OP that there shouldn't of been a T to start with.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

I hope you have also learned under the OP that there shouldn't of been a T to start with.

Absolutely. I was also shocked to learn that if the player attempts to re-enter after being disqualified that it was up to the discretion of the officials on whether to access a T at all.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Suspect away I guess...

Again I understand my first post was incorrect. My line of thinking was that the disqualified player was bench personnel which the HC is ultimately responsible for and therefore would be given an indirect T. Since then I have learned (which is the reason we having these discussions) that it is actually a direct T. I greatly appreciate the poster who posted the applicable rule earlier in this conversation.

Do you know WHY its direct to him?
If a teammember on the bench calls you a frickin idiot, what type of T is that?

Originally Posted by Duffman

Now if you want to sit here and argue that the above is what you consider "basic knowledge" that's fine I guess, but it's something we are going to have to disagree about. I've worked roughly 40 official dates a year (most of which are double headers) including two full seasons of varsity assignments as part of a 3 man crew, and a little bit of D3 college JV action and I have yet to encounter this situation, or anything remotely close to it occurring. That doesn't include the multiple officials camps and youth tournaments in which I frequently work 5-8 games per date.

Guess we'll have to disagree then, big time! You must live in SoCal

Originally Posted by Duffman

Rulebook knowledge is a tremendous asset, but it’s not the only asset, and it alone doesn’t make you a great official. Please understand I am in no way implying that you don’t also have game management skills.

Not only is it "tremendous" it is also the FOUNDATION which everything else is built upon!! I agree, I've worked with some guys that know their rules but still cant call Lassie.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Rulebook knowledge is a tremendous asset, but it’s not the only asset, and it alone doesn’t make you a great official. Please understand I am in no way implying that you don’t also have game management skills.

No one said otherwise.

Originally Posted by Duffman

Absolutely. I was also shocked to learn that if the player attempts to re-enter after being disqualified that it was up to the discretion of the officials on whether to access a T at all.

Unless you hear the coach say something like, "Go in anyway -- that last foul was a crappy call so you shouldn't have been DQ'd", it's not going to be a T. So, while the case does allow discretion, in 99.99% of the cases, it's not going to be needed, and not going to be a T if detected prior to the ball becoming live.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by tref

Do you know WHY its direct to him?
If a teammember on the bench calls you a frickin idiot, what type of T is that?

An uneccesary one?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Absolutely. I was also shocked to learn that if the player attempts to re-enter after being disqualified that it was up to the discretion of the officials on whether to access a T at all.

For the attempt, sure. But if they make it in, there's no discretion in the case play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

An uneccesary one?

You're not calling that?

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're not calling that?

Ohh I'm calling it, I just meant his actions were not necessary, even if I were a frickin idiot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Ohh I'm calling it, I just meant his actions were not necessary, even if I were a frickin idiot.

Gotcha.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Duffman

An uneccesary one?

Seriously though...