Basket counted that did not go in

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Of course it is a judgement call. Either the ball went in or it didn't and the official must adjudge what happened. Same thing with a player stepping on a line; he either stepped on it or he didn't yet the official must make a decision as to what he believes occurred. Just because a certain event is usually very easy to judge does not mean that it is not a judgement call.

I disagree with this. Do you "judge" that the sun comes up each day? You can't compare stepping on a line during action to this situation - the question is not even one of judging whether or not the ball went in, it is whether or not the attempt that was scored was even attempted by the shooter who was fouled - this is beyond the realm of "judgement" in my opinion, this is fact that is easily discerned apparently by everyone except the three individuals who were primarily responsible for discerning it! And I am going to go out on a limb and say that the table crew, most/all of the players, both coaches and everyone in the stands who was half paying attention knew what happened. It is amazing to me that none of the officials recognized this. That said, if my daughter played on this team I would be having words with the coach and/or AD about what type of example I want to be set for my kid - and no I have no horse in this race at all, and no I don't absolve the officials - 100% their fault, but doesn't mean the coach didn't miss a great opportunity to teach a lesson.

[stiffler3492]

I was at the school that this happened to last night doing their JV game. The Varsity coaches told us that not even all three of the officials got together to talk about it. Two of them did, but not the third.

No indication of whether or not the table was asked for help either.

Fortunately for this school, the school they were leading in the conference race by a game also lost that night, then they beat said team on Tuesday to wrap up the conference.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

this is beyond the realm of "judgement" in my opinion, this is fact that is easily discerned apparently by everyone

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Cobra

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

You are completely ignoring reason. Of course there is a point where a fact turns grey and then becomes a judgement call, but it is also true that there is a point when a fact is a fact. If we always leave it up to judgement, then why go to the table at all? If the officials judged that the ball went in, but the table had called them over and told them what really happened, are they now changing their judgement? Or are they admitting that they screwed up based on the fact of what happened? Sort of hard to change your judgement of what happened 3 minutes ago.

[Nevadaref]

I can't be the only one who wants to see the video of this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Cobra

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

More apt and realistic comparison would be a batted ball that clears the outfield fence on the fly and then bounds off the hill behind it back into the field of play but the umpires say it never cleared the fence.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

More apt and realistic comparison would be a batted ball that clears the outfield fence on the fly and then bounds off the hill behind it back into the field of play but the umpires say it never cleared the fence.

Which is exactly why replay was instituted in the first place - based on the premise that there are some things that are beyond judgement in that they are fact. In the absence of replay at the HS level a little bit of sportsmanship wouldn't be a bad thing. Is it required by rule, of course not, all I'm saying is that I would have thought a lot more highly of the coach if he had called the crew over with the other coach and said "look this is what happened".

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Cobra

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

To tag on to your out by thirty feet scenario

Tie game, A scores two with 10 seconds to go. Scoreboard and table erroneously put up two for wrong team. Buzzer goes off game over, officials in a coma run off court don't remember anything and game goes to wrong team.

They made a 'judgement' or lack of one.

The point is, as the coach who benefits from this travesty without a shred of sportsmanship conveys to his/her players clearly a wrong message. An error of the magnitude that happened in OP game trumps 'judgement'

To win the aforementioned game in OP by deception and if coach clearly knew what happened along with his team is wrong on any level.

All this being said, we need to see the tape.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

You are completely ignoring reason. Of course there is a point where a fact turns grey and then becomes a judgement call, but it is also true that there is a point when a fact is a fact.

The fact of what happened never turns grey. The only thing that changes is how difficult it is to discern what actually happened.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The fact of what happened never turns grey. The only thing that changes is how difficult it is to discern what actually happened.

It's fact vs. opinion.

Did he step on the line or not? yes or no, even though it may not have been seen correctly, or at all

Did a foul occur? matter of opinion