Basket counted that did not go in

[fullor30]

Discussing this situation with another board member and he brought up a great point. First of all it was clear to everyone but officials that basket was not made and has been confirmed by game tape.

His point was what kind of life lesson are you giving your kids when as a coach,you know that basket should not have counted as it never went in, or was flipped in by another player after whistle(details still sketchy).

How would you feel as a player to come away with an empty victory? What was coaches post game all about?

What a poor example for the kids

Good sportsmanship? I think not.

[Adam]

I've heard of this happening locally, from an official who reported the foul and watched the tape later. My question to him: did you get a funny look from the table?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've heard of this happening locally, from an official who reported the foul and watched the tape later. My question to him: did you get a funny look from the table?

Was this me? I had this happened earlier this season, I had the foul, thought I saw the ball out of the corner of my eye not go in, but was not positive. I had a player down, so I tended to him first, closed down. He was fine. I approach my partner and my partner, gives me the old "count it" mechanic. On tape, you can see me asking him and you can see him signal count it like three times.

So I went to report and the table questioned me, "Basket went in?" I said, "I don't know but my partner says it did, so we're going with it did".

Watched the tape, partner was wrong, not sure what he was looking at.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Toren

Was this me? I had this happened earlier this season, I had the foul, thought I saw the ball out of the corner of my eye not go in, but was not positive. I had a player down, so I tended to him first, closed down. He was fine. I approach my partner and my partner, gives me the old "count it" mechanic. On tape, you can see me asking him and you can see him signal count it like three times.

So I went to report and the table questioned me, "Basket went in?" I said, "I don't know but my partner says it did, so we're going with it did".

Watched the tape, partner was wrong, not sure what he was looking at.

In your situation, I probably would have started the same. But it might have continued differently: if I detected a disagreement between partner and table, I might have gotten them together: sometimes 3 against 1 will prevail, especially when the truth is on their side.

Sometimes a partner projects confidence when he shouldn't toward someone who doesn't know; it's a different matter to lie to the table that you're "certain" it was a basket.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Discussing this situation with another board member and he brought up a great point. First of all it was clear to everyone but officials that basket was not made and has been confirmed by game tape.

His point was what kind of life lesson are you giving your kids when as a coach,you know that basket should not have counted as it never went in, or was flipped in by another player after whistle(details still sketchy).

How would you feel as a player to come away with an empty victory? What was coaches post game all about?

What a poor example for the kids

Good sportsmanship? I think not.

While I understand what you're saying, I'm not going to impugn some coach for being the beneficiary of a horrible call. The honor code theory for coaches is certainly noble, but at what point does it start and stop? The missed shot clock violation in the women's college game that's chronicled on here--is the winning coach a bad sport for accepting the result of that call? A missed travel call that benefits him with five seconds left? Bad out of bounds call with a minute left?

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

While I understand what you're saying, I'm not going to impugn some coach for being the beneficiary of a horrible call. The honor code theory for coaches is certainly noble, but at what point does it start and stop? The missed shot clock violation in the women's college game that's chronicled on here--is the winning coach a bad sport for accepting the result of that call? A missed travel call that benefits him with five seconds left? Bad out of bounds call with a minute left?

The examples you give are all judgment calls. Whether a ball goes through a hoop, or not, has nothing to do with judgment.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

While I understand what you're saying, I'm not going to impugn some coach for being the beneficiary of a horrible call. The honor code theory for coaches is certainly noble, but at what point does it start and stop? The missed shot clock violation in the women's college game that's chronicled on here--is the winning coach a bad sport for accepting the result of that call? A missed travel call that benefits him with five seconds left? Bad out of bounds call with a minute left?

This isn't a judgement call.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by fullor30

This isn't a judgement call.

It's nuts! I don't think the burden should be placed on the opposing coach. Not sure if we are talking 2 man or 3 man crews, but it's someone who is getting paid to officiates job to get that right. You are correct, it isn't a judgement call. That doesn't remove the blame from those who were suppose to be responsible. We are suspending (or threatening to) officials fro missing judgement calls in close games at the end....WV vs Syracuse and its the coach of the team who benefits from an officials error to speak up. NO WAY!! I'm sure Jim Boheim knew it was a goaltend but he isn't stopping the game to say...it was, he is right.

Likewise, in a gym full of load, crazy fans, if you have 300 people screaming at you that the basket didn't go in and they tell you this at the table are you really going to change your call if the opposing coach walks down and says differently. Remember, you or your partner (s) saw it go in....that's why you are in this place to begin with. You going to look at your partner and say "well, he said it didn't go in."

Bottom line: YOU CAN'T MISS IT!! If you do, carry on and hope the tape never surfaces. Don't blame the other coach...lol

[Raymond]

I had a play this season (3-man) where I was Trail when the Lead had a foul where bodies went to the floor. So he never looked up at the basket. I was pretty sure, but not 100% certain, that the original shot went in and out and that somebody then quickly tipped it in. I told the Lead to hold on before reporting and I ran to the C for confirmation, but for some reason he had no idea if the shot went in or not. Came back to Lead and told him just to report the foul only and then walk to the table with me. We then ask the scorer or timer (forget which one, but it was a guy we knew and trusted) and he told us the original shot did not go in, so we went with that.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

The examples you give are all judgment calls. Whether a ball goes through a hoop, or not, has nothing to do with judgment.

Originally Posted by fullor30

This isn't a judgement call.

Of course it is a judgement call. Either the ball went in or it didn't and the official must adjudge what happened. Same thing with a player stepping on a line; he either stepped on it or he didn't yet the official must make a decision as to what he believes occurred. Just because a certain event is usually very easy to judge does not mean that it is not a judgement call.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Of course it is a judgement call. Either the ball went in or it didn't and the official must adjudge what happened. Same thing with a player stepping on a line; he either stepped on it or he didn't yet the official must make a decision as to what he believes occurred. Just because a certain event is usually very easy to judge does not mean that it is not a judgement call.

I agree with this.

That's the reason hoops have nets, to aid the officials in making that judgement. At it's foundation a goal in basketball is no different than a goal in hockey or basketball. It might be easier to judge, but it's still a judgement.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Of course it is a judgement call. Either the ball went in or it didn't and the official must adjudge what happened. Same thing with a player stepping on a line; he either stepped on it or he didn't yet the official must make a decision as to what he believes occurred. Just because a certain event is usually very easy to judge does not mean that it is not a judgement call.

I disagree with this. Do you "judge" that the sun comes up each day? You can't compare stepping on a line during action to this situation - the question is not even one of judging whether or not the ball went in, it is whether or not the attempt that was scored was even attempted by the shooter who was fouled - this is beyond the realm of "judgement" in my opinion, this is fact that is easily discerned apparently by everyone except the three individuals who were primarily responsible for discerning it! And I am going to go out on a limb and say that the table crew, most/all of the players, both coaches and everyone in the stands who was half paying attention knew what happened. It is amazing to me that none of the officials recognized this. That said, if my daughter played on this team I would be having words with the coach and/or AD about what type of example I want to be set for my kid - and no I have no horse in this race at all, and no I don't absolve the officials - 100% their fault, but doesn't mean the coach didn't miss a great opportunity to teach a lesson.

[stiffler3492]

I was at the school that this happened to last night doing their JV game. The Varsity coaches told us that not even all three of the officials got together to talk about it. Two of them did, but not the third.

No indication of whether or not the table was asked for help either.

Fortunately for this school, the school they were leading in the conference race by a game also lost that night, then they beat said team on Tuesday to wrap up the conference.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

this is beyond the realm of "judgement" in my opinion, this is fact that is easily discerned apparently by everyone

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Cobra

In a baseball game there is a ground ball batted ball to the infield. The fielder fielder throws to first base, the ball gets there and the runner is still 30 feet away. It is easily discerned by everyone (who saw the entire play clearly) that the ball beat the runner. Is it a judgement call? What if the runner was out by 10 feet? 5 feet? 1 foot? Half of a foot? At what point does it become a judgement call? The way it actually works is that they are all judgement calls. It is just that some are much more obvious than others. The official might get distracted and get an obvious call wrong.

It is the same thing in the basketball situation. The officials took their eyes off the ball and all of a sudden it is rolling on the rim and goes through the basket. They have to make a judgement as to what happened. None of them saw a second player shoot the ball, they have no reason to think that the ball didn't go in off the original shot so they count the score.

The key thing to remember is that the officials must adjudge what happened. What actually happened does not matter. All that matters is what the officials have.

You are completely ignoring reason. Of course there is a point where a fact turns grey and then becomes a judgement call, but it is also true that there is a point when a fact is a fact. If we always leave it up to judgement, then why go to the table at all? If the officials judged that the ball went in, but the table had called them over and told them what really happened, are they now changing their judgement? Or are they admitting that they screwed up based on the fact of what happened? Sort of hard to change your judgement of what happened 3 minutes ago.