Upgrading

[mbyron]

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

Was it deliberate or was the elbow accidental?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Was it deliberate or was the elbow accidental?

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

Yes. Player holding their arms like the coach wants for whatever reason they think it's needed turns at the wrong time.

[tref]

Had a player go up for the dunk, got rejected & landed on the side of his head (no foul just the downward force from the blocked shot) when he got up there was blood everywhere.

So to answer your question, no, I would never consider offering information for an upgrade based on a bleeding player.

Like I always tell em, if you dont want any contact go play ping-pong!!

If I saw the whole play as you did, an off ball elbow to the face could definitely become an INT instead of a team control foul.

[stiffler3492]

4 minute double minor for drawing blood.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

Had a player go up for the dunk, got rejected & landed on the side of his head (no foul just the downward force from the blocked shot) when he got up there was blood everywhere.

So to answer your question, no, I would never consider offering information for an upgrade based on a bleeding player.

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I would have conferred with partners and considered upgrading to at least intentional. But it's easy to second guess from here. At least you got the foul imagine if you were looking at a different matchup and you didn't see it at all.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I would have conferred with partners and considered upgrading to at least intentional. But it's easy to second guess from here. At least you got the foul imagine if you were looking at a different matchup and you didn't see it at all.

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Not sure where you're going with this, but the conference would not be to confirm the player is bleeding. It would be to confer on what happened and whether they saw it or had any input. I may not confer at all and on my way to the table decide it was an intentional. Regardless, I think it would be fine based on the OP to upgrade the call after the initial call.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Not sure where you're going with this, but the conference would not be to confirm the player is bleeding. It would be to confer on what happened and whether they saw it or had any input. I may not confer at all and on my way to the table decide it was an intentional. Regardless, I think it would be fine based on the OP to upgrade the call after the initial call.

Ummm again...

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

I agree with the rest of what you say! I'm simply saying that blood in & of itself isnt a deciding factor on whether to upgrade or not. Thats all.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Originally Posted by Smitty

Not sure where you're going with this, but the conference would not be to confirm the player is bleeding. ...

I think he responding to this portion of the OP:

Originally Posted by mbyron

...Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

I'm not not coming to my partner to discuss upgrading just because I see blood. I would only come if I too had seen the act in question.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Why are we discussing blood for changing a foul to intentional or flagrant?
Any elbow you should be thinking maybe intentional. If you find it as an accident keep it as common, if it is intentional or extreme contact then rule it as intentional or flagrant. If there is blood then there is blood. We don't call a foul based on biofluids. (includes tears for girls officials).

[refiator]

Usually your first reaction is the correct one. Don't beat yourself up over how you replay in your mind. You likely made the right call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I don't necessarily see it that way at all. It may have been but the OP gives no indication of how the elbow happened, just that it did.

I once, while playing, gave a guy a gash on his brow that needed stitches and I didn't even know I touched him. He was a friend and I'd never do such a thing on purpose to anyone, much less a friend. My elbow, in a normal basketball move, clipped his brow just right and popped it open. I did have the ball and was wondering, as I drove the the basket, how I had beat him so badly when he was no longer with me.

Elbows meet faces all the time in normal plays. Elbows are moving parts of the body that simply move a lot when players are running around. It may or may not have been deliberate...I think you' have to be there to make that judgement (or trust the OP if he had said it was...and he didn't).

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't necessarily see it that way at all. It may have been but the OP gives no indication of how the elbow happened, just that it did.
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(or trust the OP if he had said it was...and he didn't).

I based it on the OP saying this a few posts in, which led me to believe he thought it was intentionel:

Originally Posted by mbyron

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

But reading that a few times I am not sure if he was sure or not. Anyway, I was saying apples/oranges on the assumption that it was intentional. And you know what happens when I assume...