Upgrading

[mbyron]

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

Was it deliberate or was the elbow accidental?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Was it deliberate or was the elbow accidental?

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

[tref]

Had a player go up for the dunk, got rejected & landed on the side of his head (no foul just the downward force from the blocked shot) when he got up there was blood everywhere.

So to answer your question, no, I would never consider offering information for an upgrade based on a bleeding player.

Like I always tell em, if you dont want any contact go play ping-pong!!

If I saw the whole play as you did, an off ball elbow to the face could definitely become an INT instead of a team control foul.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

Yes. Player holding their arms like the coach wants for whatever reason they think it's needed turns at the wrong time.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

Whenever a guy goes down in a weird way, I always close in to see up close and to prevent other stuff from starting. Perhaps you would have seen blood if you closed down?

I might have asked you about upgrading if I knew you didn't know about the blood.

[stiffler3492]

4 minute double minor for drawing blood.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Whenever a guy goes down in a weird way, I always close in to see up close and to prevent other stuff from starting. Perhaps you would have seen blood if you closed down?

I might have asked you about upgrading if I knew you didn't know about the blood.

What does blood have to do with the act?

I've seen plenty players take a charge or get blasted by a legal screen & the result was blood everywhere. Blood alone isnt enough for an upgrade...
'"we've got a bleeder."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by tref

What does blood have to do with the act?

I've seen plenty players take a charge or get blasted by a legal screen & the result was blood everywhere. Blood alone isnt enough for an upgrade...
'"we've got a bleeder."

Taking a charge and an off-ball elbow to the nose are very different fouls.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Taking a charge and an off-ball elbow to the nose are very different fouls.

Mos Def!! My point is the act itself is what we should rule on not simply because a player is bleeding.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

Had a player go up for the dunk, got rejected & landed on the side of his head (no foul just the downward force from the blocked shot) when he got up there was blood everywhere.

So to answer your question, no, I would never consider offering information for an upgrade based on a bleeding player.

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I would have conferred with partners and considered upgrading to at least intentional. But it's easy to second guess from here. At least you got the foul imagine if you were looking at a different matchup and you didn't see it at all.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I would have conferred with partners and considered upgrading to at least intentional. But it's easy to second guess from here. At least you got the foul imagine if you were looking at a different matchup and you didn't see it at all.

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by tref

Mos Def!! My point is the act itself is what we should rule on not simply because a player is bleeding.

Smitty said it right: an elbow to the nose is not a basketball play.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Not sure where you're going with this, but the conference would not be to confirm the player is bleeding. It would be to confer on what happened and whether they saw it or had any input. I may not confer at all and on my way to the table decide it was an intentional. Regardless, I think it would be fine based on the OP to upgrade the call after the initial call.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by tref

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Why are we discussing blood for changing a foul to intentional or flagrant?
Any elbow you should be thinking maybe intentional. If you find it as an accident keep it as common, if it is intentional or extreme contact then rule it as intentional or flagrant. If there is blood then there is blood. We don't call a foul based on biofluids. (includes tears for girls officials).