ten second count starts when?

[canuckrefguy]

(NCAA rules)

A1 passes to A2, but ball is deflected into A's backcourt by B1.

A3 runs into the backcourt, and touches the ball but does not secure control. A few seconds later, he secures control

So when does the 10-count start?

1) As soon as the ball goes into the backcourt
2) When A3 touches the ball
3) When A3 gains control

[firedoc]

When A# gains possession. You can't have a ten second count until the ball is in team possession which doesn't occur until the player has the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
(NCAA rules)

A1 passes to A2, but ball is deflected into A's backcourt by B1.

A3 runs into the backcourt, and touches the ball but does not secure control. A few seconds later, he secures control

So when does the 10-count start?

1) As soon as the ball goes into the backcourt
2) When A3 touches the ball
3) When A3 gains control

Number #3. Rule 9-9-1 say: "(Men's) A player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of the ball that is in the backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds.

So just touching the ball cannot be considered control.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Firedoc and JRut are certainly correct that the ten-second count can only start after team control is established. However, from the original question it seems that Team A does have team control since A1 is passing to A2. The deflection by team B does not end this team control, so, on this play, the ten-second count should start as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.
Now if the pass from A1 to A2 is a throw-in pass, then you wait until a player inbounds establishes control before there could be a ten-second count. But the original question doesn't say if this pass is a throw-in pass.

[Nevadaref]

I should also point out that this is different from when the shot clock starts under NCAA rules or for those that use it in NFHS. After a made basket, the shot clock starts when the subsequent throw-in is legally touched or touches a player in bounds.
So if the throw-in pass is deflected and not immediately controlled by a player, we could have a situation where the shot clock could be running for say 3 seconds and the ten-second count hasn't even started. This means that in a men's game the shot clock could show 23 seconds remaining and a team could still be trying to cross the division line without committing a 10-second violation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Firedoc and JRut are certainly correct that the ten-second count can only start after team control is established. However, from the original question it seems that Team A does have team control since A1 is passing to A2.

Bingo. Give that man a gold star. Start the 10-seconds as soon as the ball gains backcourt status. I don't like it, but that's the rule.

This, of course, is different in the NBA, since the touching by the defense does end A's team control. (Plus, they only get 8 seconds).

[BktBallRef]

NVRef is correct. The count starts as soon as the ball enters the BC. Team control never ended for team A.

Same for NFHS and NCAA.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
NVRef is correct. The count starts as soon as the ball enters the BC. Team control never ended for team A.

Same for NFHS and NCAA.

I was answering this question as a throw-in. It seemed to me that the question might have been to see if the shot clock had anything to do with the start of a 10 second count. Maybe I just read too much into the question.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Fed is 9-8. NCAA is 9-9. Hope that is helpful.

[mick]

Originally posted by Official Hommie

Could you give a reference to where the rule is found that supports you statement?

4-12-3
4-13-2
9-8

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Official Hommie
It seems only inferred that it is that way. I do not see any interpretation that says it should be called that way. Is there any official interpretation you can direct me to?

1 (Team Control definition) + 1 (Backcourt Violation description) = 2.

The rules makes expect you to be able to do the math.

[canuckrefguy]

The scenario was not a throw-in, but a pass between two teammates that was deflected by the defense.

I agree, no loss of team control, count starts when ball enters backcourt...a rule I do not like. If we permit Team A to go into the backcourt to retrieve a ball deflected by the defense, it seems logical (at least to me) to wait until they secure control before starting a 10-count. But that's just me.

I had a play like this earlier in the year, and the Team A coach had a stroke because I started the 10-count "too early".

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Official Hommie
You do not have to be a smart *** to answer my questions. If you cannot give me a interpretation in the casebook or by National Federation standards then say you do not know of one.

Hey Homey, Bob's one of the good guys, ok? You're still fairly new here, so you may not have acquired a taste for the ribbing that everybody gives and gets on this discussion board. Bob's just telling you that you don't need a case on this play. The definition of team control, along with the wording of the rule in Rule 9 seems pretty clear.

If you think you're getting roughed up, do a search on the word "Sox" and take a look at how they like to dish it out on me. As I said before, keep posting; you'll get the feel of things around here.

I have never seen officials start a count the minute the ball touches the backcourt

Oooo!! Oooooo! My turn! My turn for a smart-@$$ answer!! Ahem. . . Well, I hope it doesn't take them a full minute before they start their 10-second count!

Glad to have you on board, Homey.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

canuckrefguy,

I have seen this debated before many times. I tend to agree with you because there seems to be no casebook ruling that gives information either way. I have also been yelled at for starting my count "too early" because I was thinking all the pieces fit in the rules. But when they do not fit, you look up in the casebook and put the pieces back together. Well there is nothing (and there should be) about what to do. So all you are left with is two rules to make a ruling. Not only that, you have to look in two different parts of the NF and NCAA rulebooks to come to that conclusion. If that is what they want, then they should at least put a case play in the books to tie in the loose ends. Especially when this is not that uncommon of a play.

This is just my two cents on the issue.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Hey Homey, Bob's one of the good guys, ok? You're still fairly new here, so you may not have acquired a taste for the ribbing that everybody gives and gets on this discussion board. Bob's just telling you that you don't need a case on this play. The definition of team control, along with the wording of the rule in Rule 9 seems pretty clear.

If you think you're getting roughed up, do a search on the word "Sox" and take a look at how they like to dish it out on me. As I said before, keep posting; you'll get the feel of things around here.

Oooo!! Oooooo! My turn! My turn for a smart-@$$ answer!! Ahem. . . Well, I hope it doesn't take them a full minute before they start their 10-second count!

Glad to have you on board, Homey.

Chuck

First of all Chuck, you get all that ribbing because you deserve it. Seondly, it's not "Homey", it's "Hommie", which to me sounds vaguely French. So maybe he deserves it too.

(BTW, this icon is the universal sign for "I'm joking". It's a joke. Meant to be funny. Not to be taken seriously. Like 90% of what I post here. I think only Padgett's signal to noise ratio is worse than mine, but his name is kinda French too, aint it?)