Starting the clock mechanic

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If an official did not use a preliminary signal, it has nothing to do with college ball or at least the college ball I work. In the CCA Men's Manual we are instructed to give a preliminary signal at the spot of the foul. And most college games I see there is a preliminary signal given on practically every foul. If anything that is probably a Women's college thing or what goes on in the NBA. I think people who do not know think if you don't use a preliminary signal like they assume with other things there is some college mechanic that applies to what they see and it does not at least when it applies to the one you see on TV all the time.

Peace

The only preliminary signals I have seen in D1 games I watch are hand check, PC, and block. Pushing, holding, and illegal use of hands rarely, if ever, get a preliminary.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as "college mechanics"? I think two-hand/walking reporting, a different reporting area, not stopping the clock with an open hand, etc. are college mechanics. At least college officials are given leeway to do those things differently than most high school officials.

Around here in HS games we are expected to use approved HS mechanics. (Prelim. signal, point to throw-in spot, one-hand reporting, etc on fouls). It can be tedious, but I like it because it is very annoying when you work with a guy with poor mechanics. (Won't give the throw-in spot, etc) Most guys I work with have good mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

The only preliminary signals I have seen in D1 games I watch are hand check, PC, and block. Pushing, holding, and illegal use of hands rarely, if ever, get a preliminary.

I have seen the "chucking" signal for years. This year that is a new signal but it was added and I saw it all the time in games and I see many other signals.

Originally Posted by zm1283

Are you saying that there is no such thing as "college mechanics"? I think two-hand/walking reporting, a different reporting area, not stopping the clock with an open hand, etc. are college mechanics. At least college officials are given leeway to do those things differently than most high school officials.

Not what I said at all. I am talking about there is no "college mechanic" that says going from 12 to 3 O'clock is only a college mechanic or it is outside of HS mechanics. The signal looks practically identical in the book as well as other signals look practically the same. But because people assume things they see and then call it a "college mechanic" if it is not done to what they perceive to be a high school mechanic or style when I have never been told or known anyone to be told at college camps "That is a HS mechanic you cannot do that."

Originally Posted by zm1283

Around here in HS games we are expected to use approved HS mechanics. (Prelim. signal, point to throw-in spot, one-hand reporting, etc on fouls). It can be tedious, but I like it because it is very annoying when you work with a guy with poor mechanics. (Won't give the throw-in spot, etc) Most guys I work with have good mechanics.

We are expected to use HS mechanics too. But the funny thing is I work a lot of both and if you watched me work a HS or college game, my mechanics are practically identical except for a couple of very small differences, like using the "chuck" signal for example. But the way I signal a basket counted, how I signal a one and one or even when I signal an "illegal use of the hands" are all the same. Actually I do not signal the last signal with a fist and no one says anything to me and it is the identical signal in both codes I work.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have seen the "chucking" signal for years. This year that is a new signal but it was added and I saw it all the time in games and I see many other signals.



Not what I said at all. I am talking about there is no "college mechanic" that says going from 12 to 3 O'clock is only a college mechanic or it is outside of HS mechanics. The signal looks practically identical in the book as well as other signals look practically the same. But because people assume things they see and then call it a "college mechanic" if it is not done to what they perceive to be a high school mechanic or style when I have never been told or known anyone to be told at college camps "That is a HS mechanic you cannot do that."



We are expected to use HS mechanics too. But the funny thing is I work a lot of both and if you watched me work a HS or college game, my mechanics are practically identical except for a couple of very small differences, like using the "chuck" signal for example. But the way I signal a basket counted, how I signal a one and one or even when I signal an "illegal use of the hands" are all the same. Actually I do not signal the last signal with a fist and no one says anything to me and it is the identical signal in both codes I work.

Peace

Would you say then that since the mechanics look almost the same in the book, that college officials are given a lot more leeway on what they are required to do signal/mechanic wise? From what I can tell they aren't required to stop the clock with an open hand (Some don't stop it on PC fouls), they report with two hands, walk when reporting, etc. I'm not trying to complain about college officials by any means, I'm just curious why the mechanics end up being so different sometimes.

[zm1283]

By the way, when you guys talk about going from "12 to 3" or "12 to 4" when starting the clock, can you clarify? I probably have seen what you're talking about but I haven't heard anyone talk about it like that in person before.

I usually chop with one finger down to my waist almost right in front of my body, if that makes any sense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

... they report with two hands, walk when reporting, etc. I'm ...

2-hand reporting is an NCAA mechanic.

Walking and talking is the preferred by at least one D1 supervisor who recently retired from the NBA.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2-hand reporting is an NCAA mechanic.

Walking and talking is the preferred by at least one D1 supervisor who recently retired from the NBA.

I know, that's why I was pointing it out to JRut that I have only seen college officials do these things and not high school officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2-hand reporting is an NCAA mechanic.

Walking and talking is the preferred by at least one D1 supervisor who recently retired from the NBA.

Originally Posted by zm1283

I know, that's why I was pointing it out to JRut that I have only seen college officials do these things and not high school officials.

I have seen high school officials do both these things, especially those who also work NCAA-W games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Would you say then that since the mechanics look almost the same in the book, that college officials are given a lot more leeway on what they are required to do signal/mechanic wise?

I would not say that they are given leeway, I think the powers that be care more about officiating than signals. And I do not think they care about things like fitting the picture to a tee.

Originally Posted by zm1283

From what I can tell they aren't required to stop the clock with an open hand (Some don't stop it on PC fouls), they report with two hands, walk when reporting, etc. I'm not trying to complain about college officials by any means, I'm just curious why the mechanics end up being so different sometimes.

You are still supposed to stop the clock (same as NF). And just like anything in life people do not always do exactly what is written. It does not drastically change at the HS level either. When I watch HS games on TV I see a lot of things that are not HS mechanics either. I do not consider it any more than that, just an official not using the prescribed mechanics that is all. If the the assignor/supervisor does not care, why would we really care?

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by zm1283

By the way, when you guys talk about going from "12 to 3" or "12 to 4" when starting the clock, can you clarify? I probably have seen what you're talking about but I haven't heard anyone talk about it like that in person before.

I usually chop with one finger down to my waist almost right in front of my body, if that makes any sense.

Picture hands moving on a clock with "12" being straight up and "3" being 90 degrees down from there. In other words my chop is an open hand straight up and then down to be parallel to the floor and hold that for a beat before I drop my arm.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have seen high school officials do both these things, especially those who also work NCAA-W games.

Interesting...but mainly because it is a big no-no to do those things in high school games here. I personally don't have a problem with those things, but the people I get games from do care.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not say that they are given leeway, I think the powers that be care more about officiating than signals. And I do not think they care about things like fitting the picture to a tee.

Yeah, so they're given leeway or freedom on how "By the book" their signals/mechanics are in return for being more highly scrutinized on their play calling and judgment. I think we're talking about the same thing.

You are still supposed to stop the clock (same as NF). And just like anything in life people do not always do exactly what is written. It does not drastically change at the HS level either. When I watch HS games on TV I see a lot of things that are not HS mechanics either. I do not consider it any more than that, just an official not using the prescribed mechanics that is all. If the the assignor/supervisor does not care, why would we really care?

Peace

So it's an area thing then. Most people here would get blasted on an evaluation for not stopping the clock, reporting with two hands, or not stopping to report.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Yeah, so they're given leeway or freedom on how "By the book" their signals/mechanics are in return for being more highly scrutinized on their play calling and judgment. I think we're talking about the same thing.

Others here have said that "why can't you have both" proper mechanics and good play calling?

I've seen evaluations (I've lived in states where there was a central assignor and there are evaluators) and they spent so little time on play calling and judgment and so much time on stuff like mentioned in this thread that it was disgusting. It didn't matter if an official was wrong as long as they looked like the pictogram robots in the book when doing it.

Let's face it -- these mechanics are mostly unimportant from a practical standpoint. The stop clock is rarely looked at -- clock operators stop the clock on the whistle. The chop is unimportant, really -- I've watched clock operators and they aren't even looking at me when I administer a throw-in.

Around here I hear how important it is to use high school mechanics and then I turn on the TV and watch college officials use college mechanics when working the state high school tournament....more important to get people in those games that primarily work college games than it is to get people in those games that call plays well *and* use the proper mechanics. Those kinds of things are noticed by officials, trust me.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Others here have said that "why can't you have both" proper mechanics and good play calling?

I've seen evaluations (I've lived in states where there was a central assignor and there are evaluators) and they spent so little time on play calling and judgment and so much time on stuff like mentioned in this thread that it was disgusting. It didn't matter if an official was wrong as long as they looked like the pictogram robots in the book when doing it.

I think you can have both proper mechanics and good play calling. I also agree that there are people in charge in some places that are more worried about precise mechanics than their officials getting things right. I was more pointing out that college assignors seem to be less worried about perfect mechanics and more worried about getting calls right, so I think we're all in agreement here.

Let's face it -- these mechanics are mostly unimportant from a practical standpoint. The stop clock is rarely looked at -- clock operators stop the clock on the whistle. The chop is unimportant, really -- I've watched clock operators and they aren't even looking at me when I administer a throw-in.

I completely agree, and I mention this to partners on a regular basis. There is no real reason to stop the clock with an open hand every time there is a violation.

Around here I hear how important it is to use high school mechanics and then I turn on the TV and watch college officials use college mechanics when working the state high school tournament....more important to get people in those games that primarily work college games than it is to get people in those games that call plays well *and* use the proper mechanics. Those kinds of things are noticed by officials, trust me.

I see it the same way, although I think the people in charge here do a good job of stressing good mechanics when officials are just starting out. It is good for 1st-3rd year guys to learn the right way IMO. I have noticed that as I have moved up a little bit, evaluations tend to be more about play calling and judgment and less about mechanics, although we are still expected to use "high school" mechanics.

I'm with you on the state tournament thing too. I haven't watched much of the state tournament here lately, but it happens in other games as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Yeah, so they're given leeway or freedom on how "By the book" their signals/mechanics are in return for being more highly scrutinized on their play calling and judgment. I think we're talking about the same thing.

So it's an area thing then. Most people here would get blasted on an evaluation for not stopping the clock, reporting with two hands, or not stopping to report.

Remember the original conversation was about how we execute the stop clock signal and if 12 to 6 was proper as opposed to 12 to 3, which the latter was assumed a college mechanic by a few people here. I do not see officials using 2 handed mechanics at the HS level or at least not with people that know any better. Using 2 handed reporting is a college mechanic and is not appropriate to use. Not going 12 to 6 on a stop clock signal is a stylistic movement, not a college mechanic. Even not stopping to report is not always a college mechanic being used, it is often that officials are in a hurry and do not slow down. I see a lot of officials that report fouls like they have dinner plans right after the game is over. Even stopping to report is used in Men's college and is supposed to be used there too.

You could watch my mechanics in both a HS and college game and you could not notice what level I was doing unless I told you, or looked at the players.

I just think we are too quick to attribute something someone does to what goes on to college frankly most people do not know what is a college mechanic if it slapped them in the face. All you have to do is look in a CCA Men's book and quickly realize how similar those mechanics are to NF or HS mechanics. The CCA Women's does different things, but the officials I see doing those mechanics are not always Women's officials at that level.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Peter Webb's, IAABO "International" Interpreter, observations after observing our eight Connecticut State Tournament final games:

Stop the clock – every whistle for time-out, foul and violation rulings must be accompanied by the stop the
clock signal

Officials not accepting that the high school “package” of rules, mechanics, signals are expected when
accepting a high school assignment – have a professional approach and pride; honor the code that is in
place; respect officiating (an indication of not being prepared for the assignment)

Collegiate officials not caring enough to respect a high school assignment and service the schools and
game in a professional manner. Not a good example to display to other officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Peter Webb's, IAABO "International" Interpreter, observations after observing our eight Connecticut State Tournament final games:

Stop the clock – every whistle for time-out, foul and violation rulings must be accompanied by the stop the
clock signal

Officials not accepting that the high school “package” of rules, mechanics, signals are expected when
accepting a high school assignment – have a professional approach and pride; honor the code that is in
place; respect officiating (an indication of not being prepared for the assignment)

Collegiate officials not caring enough to respect a high school assignment and service the schools and
game in a professional manner. Not a good example to display to other officials.

And yet who got the assignments? I'm sure those people used collegiate mechanics in HS games before getting selected.

The only way people will change is if some assignments are being lost. Till then, they'll only laugh at evaluations like this.