Discussed in an association meeting last night...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

I guess it could be "ridiculous" depending on the level one currently works & the quality of camps they attend. Many officials who dont camp anymore or just attend local HS camps (giving out last decades information) have this thought process.

Nobody said every 3 point attempt...

The correct point value is far more important than an OOB call

99s are good PCA guys, Rs know whats going on in the GAME!

I've attended some very high quality camps and I still don't peek at a whole bunch of possible 3's taken outside of my PCA. I know which types of situations may need my help and which don't.

And even so I still always know what's going on in my games.

And I think maybe you should lose this "99" reference you use frequently. Kind of insulting, demeaning, and arrogant to officials who don't agree with everyone of your philosophies.

Based on your posting history I surmise you are being exposed to a lot of pro philosophy (NBA/D-League/semi-pros). But the philosophies and teachings for those leagues don't always translate to college and high school ball.

Just MHO.

[Welpe]

I know I've asked this before...what's a 99?

For what it's worth, one of the most highly regarded camps in this area is high school oriented I don't know if that necessarily speaks to the quality of the ball here but you are a nobody in the chapter until you've gone to one of these camps.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Ahh the old "if I went to a college camp I'm better than you" card. You certainly implied all 3-pt attempts.

Negative sir... sounds like the ol "damn, how did he know" retort.

Didnt mean to imply that, it all depends on who I'm working with & their position on the court.
Does a partners eyes follow the flight of the ball on shot attempts?
Does a partner position adjust on shot attempts?

The answers to those questions tells me how often to sneak a peak or if I even need to referee my 3rd & beyond.

Lets keep it real, all of us arent in this for the same thing & some of us aren't as skilled as others. I'm not letting the team crash & burn when I'm with a check collector or a ball watcher or a guy wearing the uniform who shouldn't be.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tref

Negative sir... sounds like the ol "damn, how did he know" retort.

Didnt mean to imply that, it all depends on who I'm working with & their position on the court.
Does a partners eyes follow the flight of the ball on shot attempts?
Does a partner position adjust on shot attempts?

The answers to those questions tells me how often to sneak a peak or if I even need to referee my 3rd & beyond.

Lets keep it real, all of us arent in this for the same thing & some of us aren't as skilled as others. I'm not letting the team crash & burn when I'm with a check collector or a ball watcher or a guy wearing the uniform who shouldn't be.

It's nights like those where you know you're being less effective cause you have to work your game and a big percentage of someone else's.

I filled in with a guy I never met last year. His eyes never left the ball. I caught this on the first halfcourt set. I found myself working off-ball even when the ball was in my primary. I was very uncomfortable all night.

It's why I'm happy that we have "regular" partners here and I work a large portion of my games with the same 2-3 people.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

So basically your partner better get it & get it right?

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

Was this to me? If so, my response is that in 2 man, as lead, I've got enough to worry about on 99% of the shots in his 3 pt primary (not talking about the plays that are close to my primary) that I'm not going to be able to get a peak. I have to trust my partner on this one. If I can't trust him on a 3 point shot, there are going to be some big issues.

I don't allow coaches to go off on me like this, either. Do you start watching for travels in your partner's primary just because a defensive coach went off on you for missing one?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

This also implies that by you "helping" your weak partner out by making lots of calls in his primary and overruling a few 3-pt shots, it makes you look good. I'm not sure anyone looks good when this happens, and I agree it does happen. There's only so much you can do when your partner is weak, but I would argue it's a very rare game when you can somehow make up for his/her weakness and also make the whole crew look good. Once you have to start reaching, you start missing stuff that's in your primary. It's often a mess.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've attended some very high quality camps and I still don't peek at a whole bunch of possible 3's taken outside of my PCA. I know which types of situations may need my help and which don't.

I agree, you worded it better. Not every situation & depending on your crew, maybe not at all.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And I think maybe you should lose this "99" reference you use frequently. Kind of insulting, demeaning, and arrogant to official who don't agree with everyone of your philosophies.

Based on your posting history I surmise you are being exposed to a lot of pro philosophy (NBA/D-League/semi-pros). But the philosophies and teachings for those leagues don't always translate to college and high school ball.

Just MHO.

Okay, even though I still get assigned as U2 on games thats my last time using 99 here.
But these arent MY philosophies, to be honest the guys I learn from dont like philosophies they say to stay away from them & call the game by the book.

Are there differences in rules, court coverage & approved signals? Yes but as long as the rim is 10' & the FT line is 15' & there are boundary lines & there are 5 players on each team at each level... Basketball is Basketball man!

I see nothing wrong with having the mindset of the best to do it & applying practices at the level one currently works.

Originally Posted by Welpe

For what it's worth, one of the most highly regarded camps in this area is high school oriented I don't know if that necessarily speaks to the quality of the ball here but you are a nobody in the chapter until you've gone to one of these camps.

Yeah, we have those too
And once is suffice... no video, no can do! If they choose not to use me, trust, someone else will.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I filled in with a guy I never met last year. His eyes never left the ball. I caught this on the first halfcourt set. I found myself working off-ball even when the ball was in my primary. I was very uncomfortable all night..

Oh okay, so others see it too! Thats all Im saying it depends on who you're with. It doesnt take many trips up & down to see what you need to do to assist a particular crew in being the most successful team of the 3.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's why I'm happy that we have "regular" partners here and I work a large portion of my games with the same 2-3 people.

Lucky guy!!!

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Was this to me? If so, my response is that in 2 man, as lead, I've got enough to worry about on 99% of the shots in his 3 pt primary (not talking about the plays that are close to my primary) that I'm not going to be able to get a peak. I have to trust my partner on this one. If I can't trust him on a 3 point shot, there are going to be some big issues.

I hear ya Snaqs, its quite the challenge sometimes. But thats why we do what we do, right? I trust all my partners until they give me reason not to. Had 2 person 3 nights in a row, luckily all with quality guys! So in these cases I didnt have to sneak-a-peak often. Like most of what we do, it all depends.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't allow coaches to go off on me like this, either. Do you start watching for travels in your partner's primary just because a defensive coach went off on you for missing one?

If I'm the T, I watch for travels in my partners primary (which is my secondary) throughout the contest. Believe it or not the post entry play is a 3 referee play.
L has illegal contact by offense & defense.
T has offensive feet.
C is prepared for the curl while watching the hook.

Yup all while officiating the players in their primary TOO. Multi-tasking is a great quality for officials to have.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This also implies that by you "helping" your weak partner out by making lots of calls in his primary and overruling a few 3-pt shots, it makes you look good. I'm not sure anyone looks good when this happens, and I agree it does happen. There's only so much you can do when your partner is weak, but I would argue it's a very rare game when you can somehow make up for his/her weakness and also make the whole crew look good. Once you have to start reaching, you start missing stuff that's in your primary. It's often a mess.

I agree to a point, just because I extend my primary doesnt mean I'm putting whistles on plays there... just the obvious, meaningful plays & its always late as I gave them an opportunity. Getting obvious plays right looks better than no-call. At the end of the day thats what its all about.

Since when did we start overruling our partners in basketball

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tref

If I'm the T, I watch for travels in my partners primary (which is my secondary) throughout the contest. Believe it or not the post entry play is a 3 referee play.
L has illegal contact by offense & defense.
T has offensive feet.
C is prepared for the curl while watching the hook.

Yup all while officiating the players in their primary TOO. Multi-tasking is a great quality for officials to have.

This is a great example, BTW. The L sometimes has the absolute worst chance to get a travel in the post and the T can be a huge help there.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

Since when did we start overruling our partners in basketball

I see the smiley, but I meant the 3-pt shot specifically - coming in and changing it to a 2 if you see a foot on the line.

[tref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is a great example, BTW. The L sometimes has the absolute worst chance to get a travel in the post and the T can be a huge help there.

L is too close to the play, T has the great open look. And some still get mad because you called a travel "in front" of them. Oh boy! Its 2012 people & the game has changed.

Originally Posted by Smitty

I see the smiley, but I meant the 3-pt shot specifically - coming in and changing it to a 2 if you see a foot on the line.

I know exactly what you meant, pregame determines how we do it.
Some people want you to come in & tell them you had a foot on the line so they can change it, others say if you're 100 change it yourself right then & there to keep the game moving.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

L is too close to the play, T has the great open look. And some still get mad because you called a travel "in front" of them. Oh boy! Its 2012 people & the game has changed.

I guess I didn't realize this was new; it's certainly being taught to us lowly high school officials; has been for years. And in this situation, I'm talking about you as L peaking across the paint to a player on the 3 pt line to see if he's traveling (the real equivalent to L catching a 3 pt shot on the opposite elbow).

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

it's certainly being taught to us lowly high school officials)

Come on Snaqs, the largest part of my schedule is HS games. Lets not go there.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And in this situation, I'm talking about you as L peaking across the paint to a player on the 3 pt line to see if he's traveling (the real equivalent to L catching a 3 pt shot on the opposite elbow).

I've already provided the example of calling a long distance travel. Its from T to L not L to T/C outside the 3 point line.
FTR, if I'm peeking across the paint I should be moving my feet over there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Come on Snaqs, the largest part of my schedule is HS games. Lets not go there.

I was referring to your denigration of high school camps.

[Raymond]

If I have a "weak/shouldn't be there/only for the $$$/warm body/etc" partner I'm only extending to get assault/batteries and only conversing if I think a rule is being misapplied or an "on the floor" should be changed to a shooting foul. Otherwise both coaches are going to have to live with the missed travels, missed handchecks, phantom "over the back" and "reaching" fouls, and confusing mechanics. Then they can call the assignor and submit the appropriate report.

If the assignor is willing to put that official in that game then the assignor can answer all the complaints. Or maybe the assignor is thinking the game is getting the quality of official it deserves.