Uncalled Cheap Shots

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rwest

#34 moved to the side (If I remember the play) and hits the arm and probably some contact on the body. It was not savage or violent. I think one thing is missing in this discussion. #34 is a big boy and when he makes contact it is going have more mass behind it. Would you call a flagrant foul if this same foul was committed by a point guard on #34?

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

I didn't see play number 1 the same way you did. It looked to me like he moved to try and block the shot. #5 was definitely flagrant. # 1 didn't seem to me that he was "dangerously throwing" his weight around like number 5. or foul number 3.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

I didn't see play number 1 the same way you did. It looked to me like he moved to try and block the shot. #5 was definitely flagrant. # 1 didn't seem to me that he was "dangerously throwing" his weight around like number 5. or foul number 3.

Most of us have considered #1 to be nothing more than a hard shooting foul, possibly intentional. But if it was the first thing #34 had done, he's only on my radar at this point. I'm just not sure who you're debating with now, unless it's the kid who posted the video to youtube.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

I do not think most of us are saying anything. I think there is a lot of disagreement on what is and what is not flagrant and on play one I have not seen most advocating for that being a flagrant foul.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

I think if we did not see a compilation of plays and just one play at different times, I honestly believe there would be a very different reaction. I think we are overstepping what most of us would do and considering I have very rarely ever seen an flagrant foul, let alone called one personally for contact, I doubt many here would go right to that place easily.

Peace

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rwest

I didn't see play number 1 the same way you did. It looked to me like he moved to try and block the shot. #5 was definitely flagrant. # 1 didn't seem to me that he was "dangerously throwing" his weight around like number 5. or foul number 3.

Not sure what you mean about the way I saw play #1. At that point I would likely not go intentional, and certainly not flagrant, but would have said something to him about "playing the ball, etc."

The second foul from #34 I'm probably going intentional given what's transpired. Of course we are only seeing selected plays from the game but I've seen enough basketball to highly doubt that there is any other video evidence from that game that would change how I feel about #34's play and the things that should be done from an officiating standpoint in a similar situation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think most of us are saying anything. I think there is a lot of disagreement on what is and what is not flagrant and on play one I have not seen most advocating for that being a flagrant foul.

Probably is a lot of disagreement on what is flagrant and what is NOT in general. And I havent seen anyone really advocating for the 1st one here being flagrant either. So I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

But I probably shouldnt speak on what "most are saying" was just my personal opinion on what I thought was consensus in this thread was about how officials should deal with #34 and similar situations.

I think if we did not see a compilation of plays and just one play at different times, I honestly believe there would be a very different reaction. I think we are overstepping what most of us would do and considering I have very rarely ever seen an flagrant foul, let alone called one personally for contact, I doubt many here would go right to that place easily.

Peace

If we saw them all independently then of course you look at it differently. But the video shows a number of plays. If they happened in sequence then again, I have a really hard time believing anthing else is on tape from that game that would change my mind. And even if they are out of sequence I really don't think that would happen either.

I've personally never called, and have rarely seen, a flagrant either but I'm pretty sure I'm going flagrant on #5 unless maybe it's the first in that sequence.

But I guess I'm more trusting the video evidence here more than others. Of course there's a chance I'm wrong but I think I've got a pretty good picture of what happened in that game. And I think most of us know, and are in agreement but the general way of how we would handled it if that's the case.

In fact I think you said it well that what stood out was the complete lack of awareness of this crew.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

If we saw them all independently then of course you look at it differently. But the video shows a number of plays. If they happened in sequence then again, I have a really hard time believing anthing else is on tape from that game that would change my mind. And even if they are out of sequence I really don't think that would happen either.

That is part of the problem, we do not know if they are in sequence. All we know is the guy picked out some plays and considered every one flagrant. We do not see other fouls or potential fouls. There might have been other things that we did not see that could have been called. As a matter of fact we do not see much of what this player did on the offensive end either. That is why I would like to see the entire game and then make some judgments as to how skilled the player was or how much basketball they were playing.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I've personally never called, and have rarely seen, a flagrant either but I'm pretty sure I'm going flagrant on #5 unless maybe it's the first in that sequence.

I have called one in my career and there was no doubt it was flagrant (player purposely threw and elbow to strike a screener). I have seen bigger players knock smaller players to the floor often. All I am saying is it might not have been something I would have though much of just looking at that individual play. Knowing the game and the circumstances surrounding the game, I might have had a different opinion. And I am not talking about these plays, I am talking about other fouls by both teams and other action that might have contributed to some angst.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

But I guess I'm more trusting the video evidence here more than others. Of course there's a chance I'm wrong but I think I've got a pretty good picture of what happened in that game. And I think most of us know, and are in agreement but the general way of how we would handled it if that's the case.

In fact I think you said it well that what stood out was the complete lack of awareness of this crew.

Remember I said the lack of awareness was about how they reacted to the fouls with bodies falling to the floor, not whether or not they called a foul. Anytime I have a player going to the floor on any kind of hard foul, I am in there to make sure the player does not overreact to the contact. Players will do that even when there is not anything flagrant going on. They acted like nothing could happen or needed to be addressed if you looked at the tape. That was my concern more than anything. Even the player that was fouled near the end line could have overreacted to the contact and the officials just seems like he is calling a foul and walking away.

Peace