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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2011, 07:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
Yes, I'm aware that a whistle doesn't cancel a shot attempt, but you said "kill the play." When you say "kill the play," to me that means kill the basket as well.
You kill the play when you see the clock did not start. Therefore, there is no shot, therefore no basket to worry about. Play was killed before any of that could transpire. That is what BktBallRef said.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2011, 07:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes2255 View Post
Looking for some opinions on whether my partner and I handled an end of game situation correctly or not. Holiday Tournament 2-man crew, 3 point game with 5.3 seconds left. Team behind throwing the ball inbounds front court end line. I am the trail and the inbounds pass goes to a player in my primary who then passes to a shooter that misses the shot, gets the rebound and passes is out for another 3 point shot that goes in at the buzzer.

The defensive team complains that the clock did not start when the first offensive player caught the ball. My partner and I speak with the clock keeper who says he agrees that it didn’t start on time but doesn’t know how much time elapsed before he did start it. My partner and I don’t know how much time elapsed either so off to OT we go. Did we do this correctly by allowing the three point shot?

A couple thoughts, usually I may peek to see if the clock starts in that situation but the initial offensive player was dangerously close to the three point line and I wanted to make sure he wasn’t on the line if he took the shot. Also, after we got into the locker room my partner says that he noticed the clock hadn’t started after the pass was being made to the first three point try. If he would have stopped it then, what options do we have here? Start the play over at 5.3 seconds or run off the necessary time and inbound the ball at POI?

In the end the team up by three to start this whole mess won easily in OT so I felt like there was a bullet dodged but looking for opinions to handle a situation I hope doesn’t happen again. Sorry for this being lengthy but felt I needed to get all of the info explained properly.
During a close game, I often go to the timer with about 120 to 60 seconds left, who is usually a high school kid*, and tell them s/he's doing a great job so far. I then remind him/her that the most important thing you do from here on in is to start the clock when my (or his) arm "chops in time".

There are surprisingly many opportunities to do this: timeouts, "checking" to see if we're in the bonus, regular throw-ins near the table, etc.

I always make sure to thank the table for their help in making sure that the game went off without any problems.

I can't remember the last time that I've had a timing issue like yours in a close game.

In 98% of all the games I work, HS and club, the table is manned by HS kids. About 1 game in 3 I see new faces.
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Last edited by JugglingReferee; Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 07:15am.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2011, 09:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by refiator View Post
At .3. I hold my whistle. Blowing the play dead is a moot point. If the ball is caught, blow your whistle then and end the game. If it is tipped/tapped, the games ends on the made or missed tip/tap.
I'mm 99% certain that the current play starts with three seconds, not 3/10 second.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 30, 2011, 09:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes2255 View Post
Looking for some opinions on whether my partner and I handled an end of game situation correctly or not. Holiday Tournament 2-man crew, 3 point game with 5.3 seconds left. Team behind throwing the ball inbounds front court end line. I am the trail and the inbounds pass goes to a player in my primary who then passes to a shooter that misses the shot, gets the rebound and passes is out for another 3 point shot that goes in at the buzzer.

The defensive team complains that the clock did not start when the first offensive player caught the ball. My partner and I speak with the clock keeper who says he agrees that it didnít start on time but doesnít know how much time elapsed before he did start it. My partner and I donít know how much time elapsed either so off to OT we go. Did we do this correctly by allowing the three point shot?

A couple thoughts, usually I may peek to see if the clock starts in that situation but the initial offensive player was dangerously close to the three point line and I wanted to make sure he wasnít on the line if he took the shot. Also, after we got into the locker room my partner says that he noticed the clock hadnít started after the pass was being made to the first three point try. If he would have stopped it then, what options do we have here? Start the play over at 5.3 seconds or run off the necessary time and inbound the ball at POI?

In the end the team up by three to start this whole mess won easily in OT so I felt like there was a bullet dodged but looking for opinions to handle a situation I hope doesnít happen again. Sorry for this being lengthy but felt I needed to get all of the info explained properly.
Great stuff. Game awareness is very underrated. The ball was inbounded to someone, the non-primary official is the best one to ensure the clock started. He has two choices: stop the play if it did not start, or keep his own count mentally. If the first shot goes in, there really is no issue, but he can take more time off due to "definite knowledge" at his discretion. (I would not do that.) If the first shot is missed, he then has the chance to blow the whistle and say the game ended when his "definite knowledge" hit 5.3. The tricik here is you better be right and not early. Being right makes you unbelievably good; being wrong makes you the guy from RichMSN's video.

Very tough to do, which is why officating is such a challenge. You have to be hyperaware, very quick mentally to process all of this, integrate with your partner, be 100% correct, make a decision, and sell it confidently, all within a short period of time.

You did not screw anything up, IMO. We cannot always control the table, and they do make some mistakes. That's why the big boys have the TV replay.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 01, 2012, 01:16pm
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Thanks

To everyone that took the time to read this situation and weigh in. Most everyone agrees how we should have handled it and that was my initial thought as well.

I usually view this site from the outside and just take in all of the information, but now I believe I will get involved a bit more. Thanks again for the positive feedback.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 01, 2012, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'mm 99% certain that the current play starts with three seconds, not 3/10 second.
I'm 100% sure. I mistook the period as a decimal......Thanks for giving me a 1% benefit of the doubt
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 01, 2012, 11:46pm
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Worth the read

Threads like this one reflecting on a difficult, real life situations, make this forum very enriching. Thanks for all your help.

*group hug*
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 02, 2012, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
During a close game, I often go to the timer with about 120 to 60 seconds left, who is usually a high school kid*, and tell them s/he's doing a great job so far. I then remind him/her that the most important thing you do from here on in is to start the clock when my (or his) arm "chops in time".

There are surprisingly many opportunities to do this: timeouts, "checking" to see if we're in the bonus, regular throw-ins near the table, etc.

I always make sure to thank the table for their help in making sure that the game went off without any problems.
Agree, I do likewise, especially during Rec Games when mom and pop are at the table. Good, positive feedback to let them know we thank them for volunteering their time and appreciate their efforts can go a long way.

Most of my V games this yr have been manned by Officials from our Association who do a great job. Been lucky there!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 02, 2012, 06:44pm
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Although the clocks starts prematurely in this NFHS interp one can take some guidance from it and apply the concept to the given situation in which the clock fails to start properly.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1ís pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2ís touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2ís throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 Ė likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A ďdo overĒ is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
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