stupid kid; stupid parent

[Jim Henry]

Did a 6th grade boy’s game last week. My partner calls 5th foul on #40. I hear the boy say under his breath, “that call is a bunch of crap.” I say to him, “What did you say?” (Thinking the kid would not say it again) He says the same thing. I give him a technical and tell his coach what happened. After the game the parent asks me what #40 did to get the technical. I told him what happened and mentioned the boy had the chance to take back what was said the first time but repeated the same message, Dad says, “well it was crap and the boy was just answering the question.” Suggesting the boy should not get a T for answering my question. I said it doesn’t work that way and stated you don’t say that to a ref. The dad ranted on about bad calls prior to that, and I just turned and walked away.
In my opinion it was a teachable moment for the boy . Probably not for the dad,

[SAK]

Originally Posted by Jim Henry

Did a 6th grade boy’s game last week. My partner calls 5th foul on #40. I hear the boy say under his breath, “that call is a bunch of crap.” I say to him, “What did you say?” (Thinking the kid would not say it again) He says the same thing. I give him a technical and tell his coach what happened. After the game the parent asks me what #40 did to get the technical. I told him what happened and mentioned the boy had the chance to take back what was said the first time but repeated the same message, Dad says, “well it was crap and the boy was just answering the question.” Suggesting the boy should not get a T for answering my question. I said it doesn’t work that way and stated you don’t say that to a ref. The dad ranted on about bad calls prior to that, and I just turned and walked away.
In my opinion it was a teachable moment for the boy . Probably not for the dad,

You thought it was a teachable moment, and it was. Problem was that the child learned that he can say that and dad will back him. That sums up what is wrong with basketball and even life off the court. During teachable moments the children learn that they can get away with far too much, at least as far as parents are concerned. Parents need to be parents and teach their kids some respect for authority, regardless if they agree with the authority.

[just another ref]

I agree he shouldn't have gotten it for answering the question. He should have gotten it for saying it the first time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He should have gotten it for saying it the first time.

Agree.

[reffish]

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

Disagree. Personally, I wouldn't have bothered and would have just stuck him, but an official who tries to give him the chance to back down isn't the problem. Letting it go the second time would have been worse.

[Tio]

Agree with Snaq.

If you ask him to repeat it you are baiting him. Either ignore it or T him on the spot. You cannot win with parents at any level. Those after-game conversations rarely go well and should be avoided at all costs.

[Moosie74]

I may say, #40 if you said what I think you said, please don't use that type of language here. No point in asking him to repeat it, nothing good will come from that and given that he's just been hit with his 5th foul he may be upset so you have to give them some room.

Last week I had an 8th grader commit his 5th foul on a nice open field tackle on the dribbler, no other way to describe it, I call the intentional foul, fouler turns to me and says thanks for the doing the game ref, have a great night and he leaves the court smiling. Table confirms 5 fouls, I inform coach and he says, I know, he (the player) already told me.

Yes my partner should have taken all that but he was too busy walking back up the court from trail.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by reffish

Be careful what you ask for.

Be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by reffish

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

I agree. While I would never use it, and I think it can only backfire, the OP was giving the kid a chance to unearn the T.
This comment needs to be addressed. If I didn't hear it clearly, I'll likely talk to the coach, "I only heard enough to give you a heads up coach." But if I hear it clearly, whack.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

Maybe not everyone is aware of the informal codes you use on the basketball court. If you ask a question you should be expecting a response.

The players options are:

- Refuse to do what you instructed him to do and say nothing.
- Lie to you and say he said something else.
- Truthfully answer you.

You said you do this type of stuff with your kids. Do you want your kids lying to you? Do you want your kids to refuse to do what you told them to do? Or would you rather have them obey you?

Calling a technical foul after asking what was said is a terrible way to handle the situation. You asked a question and it was answered. If you didn't want to hear the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jim Henry

Did a 6th grade boy’s game last week. My partner calls 5th foul on #40. I hear the boy say under his breath, “that call is a bunch of crap.” I say to him, “What did you say?” (Thinking the kid would not say it again) He says the same thing. I give him a technical and tell his coach what happened. After the game the parent asks me what #40 did to get the technical. I told him what happened and mentioned the boy had the chance to take back what was said the first time but repeated the same message, Dad says, “well it was crap and the boy was just answering the question.” Suggesting the boy should not get a T for answering my question. I said it doesn’t work that way and stated you don’t say that to a ref. The dad ranted on about bad calls prior to that, and I just turned and walked away.
In my opinion it was a teachable moment for the boy . Probably not for the dad,

Why ask a player what he said? Either T him b/c you heard what he said or leave it alone.

[Welpe]

I've learned this the hard way, nothing good can be gained from engaging with parents and fans.

[7IronRef]

Sounds like over officiating to me.

TF's are supposed to improve the game and I don't see that in this case. So what if a 6th grader thought and said the call was crap (unless he said it loud enough that it could not have been overlooked - which wasn't the case "under his breath"). The player had just fouled out, made a comment, was asked to repeat it by an adult/authority figure, got T'd for it - baited in my opinion.

Let it go, maybe say something to the coach and move on. Remember that at least one person is going to think any call or no-call is crap depending on their POV.

BTW, of course a parent is going to stick up for their child, especially when there was no profanity involved and it wasn't disrepectful.