Have any of you ever called...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will put it this way. I am a Back Judge in football. If I call a Roughing the Passer penalty I really need to hang up my whistle and stripped shirt. The other situation you are talking about as far as I remember was not the same as this situation.

And like I used to hear this as a kid, "You can be right and dead at the same time." I think I would have to eat that mistake and let my partner do his job.

Peace

If you make a judgment call so far out of your area as in your BJ example, you're right...I agree.

What I'm talking about is not about judgment....it is about absolutes. The only judgement in this case is whether the player has it at their disposal or not....and that is a judgment call only when a player may be delaying the throwin by not picking up the ball or taking it out of bounds.

However, when the player has the ball OOB and is in a position to make a throwin, there is no judgment to it....by rule, the count should be on. If 8, 9 or more seconds transpire after that point, someone better have something.

When the final buzzer sounds and you're asked about the play by your assignor, I don't want to be left with saying I knew it should have been called but did nothing and point the finger at my partner.

And the play I referred to was indeed different, but it was a player where the crew was held responsible for what was the responsibility of one official.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Most calls where a partner helps, I'm going to say "thank you." But there are some that do nothing but throw me under the bus and the person jumping in should know better. Exhibit 1 - the video in the OP.

Agree....the new lead in the OP was absolutely 100% wrong. He would have been wrong even if he were the new trail.

But the continuing discussion was not about the sit. in the OP. It was a what-if....what if the time was much, much more and not just barely 5 seconds since the ball fell through the basket...what if the clock ran down 10+ seconds (or maybe 20+ seconds) with the thrower standing OOB with the ball. The question was about what point should/will another official step in and either make the call or simply stop the clock to address the unusual delay? Are you saying there is no point at all? To the extreme just to illustrate the point, would you let it go 5 minutes without stepping in?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The risks are too great. No way I'm even going to have a count. Anyone who makes this call, even if it was right, is driving a bus. You've told everyone who knows anything at all about basketball that you think your partner isn't ready for this game. You've also told them that you, in fact, are the one over his head.

If a player is clearly standing OOB with the ball for a throwin for 10 seconds with no call from your partner, your partner has already told everyone they've spaced out. Not stopping it at some point tells them you have too. How long would you stand by and act like you had no idea with everyone in the gym knowing it was grossly wrong?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If a player is clearly standing OOB with the ball for a throwin for 10 seconds with no call from your partner, your partner has already told everyone they've spaced out. Not stopping it at some point tells them you have too. How long would you stand by and act like you had no idea with everyone in the gym knowing it was grossly wrong?

It's a hypothetical that has little chance of happening and illustrates well the slippery slope we can be on. Where's the threshold -- 5 seconds? 7 seconds? How about the travel in the Duke video just posted?

Playing along -- I would probably stop the game and have a conversation with my partner. But it would be a long time after 5 seconds.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Playing along -- I would probably stop the game and have a conversation with my partner. But it would be a long time after 5 seconds.

Agreed.

My first instinct, after 12-15 seconds or so, would be to look down at the end line to see if my partner is okay. If so, I'd give it another five seconds or so before blowing the whistle and checking with him.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The risks are too great. No way I'm even going to have a count. Anyone who makes this call, even if it was right, is driving a bus. You've told everyone who knows anything at all about basketball that you think your partner isn't ready for this game. You've also told them that you, in fact, are the one over his head.

I was talking about generalities...counts on inbounds plays would not even enter the discussion, IMO.

[BayStateRef]

I was at a college tryout camp this summer when the T and C were the only two people in the gym not to see a travel about three steps over the division line. When the clinician brought us together, I said I had seen it from the lead, but there was no way I would ever call that...particularly when I am being evaluated.

The clinician agreed it was not usually a good call from that far, but it was so obvious that he felt I should have come in late...but really strong and made the proper call. Even with that advice, I don't think I can do it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The clinician agreed it was not usually a good call from that far, but it was so obvious that he felt I should have come in late...but really strong and made the proper call.

If he felt that stronly about it, he should have made the call!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's a hypothetical that has little chance of happening and illustrates well the slippery slope we can be on. Where's the threshold -- 5 seconds? 7 seconds? How about the travel in the Duke video just posted?

Playing along -- I would probably stop the game and have a conversation with my partner. But it would be a long time after 5 seconds.

Thank you....And, again, I meant in no way to suggest your partner in the OP was anywhere near right.

The approach that you suggest is what I was getting at....at SOME point, you can't just ignore it and leave it on your partner.

And as for the the Duke video, probably not. It wouldn't be something I'd pick up from Lead. I wouldn't be looking for it and it is not something you can know without looking for it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you make a judgment call so far out of your area as in your BJ example, you're right...I agree.

What I'm talking about is not about judgment....it is about absolutes. The only judgement in this case is whether the player has it at their disposal or not....and that is a judgment call only when a player may be delaying the throwin by not picking up the ball or taking it out of bounds.

However, when the player has the ball OOB and is in a position to make a throwin, there is no judgment to it....by rule, the count should be on. If 8, 9 or more seconds transpire after that point, someone better have something.

An official has too much time on their hands if they are calling something here from the Trail. There are players that could be trying to get free and move around the court. If he/she is counting and has the time to make that call, they are certainly not doing their job which is required to watch a lot of players certainly in two person and the case in three person as well. If that kind of issue takes place than an official that is the new trail should not be working those kinds of games if they cannot get those plays right. We have people get banned for much lesser things in games, why would we not do the same here? We cannot take it upon ourselves to make everything right in the world because we think a partner screwed up.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the final buzzer sounds and you're asked about the play by your assignor, I don't want to be left with saying I knew it should have been called but did nothing and point the finger at my partner.

I would not be telling an assignor I knew something I am not watching for. I would not be in this situation. I had a situation take place on a 3 point shot where the ball went in on a off-ball foul and my partner counted the basket. The only information I could give is that the ball went in. I could not tell the assignor definitively that the foul took place before or after the ball was released (which was the assignor's contention) and certainly could only give very little help. Why? I was watching other players and could not tell you what was happening on the other side of the court. I probably got banned from that league and honestly I am OK with that. The assignor did not know the rule and his handling of the situation was evidence of what I felt about him.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And the play I referred to was indeed different, but it was a player where the crew was held responsible for what was the responsibility of one official.

Well as I said, you can be dead and right at the same time. I am not taking my responsibility for my partner that has a judgment call in a situation like this. I might help out when appropriate, but not make a call for him/her that they have all the way. If they cannot get that right they should not be there.

Peace

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He simply panicked. The game was probably too big for him because if it was not, he would not have been worried about what you were doing in that situation. That is why some guys never get to a certain level because they cannot handle the stress of the game in these kinds of situations. I think all the other justification is a way for him not to admit he was not ready and might never be. Why else would he justify his actions well after the fact?

Peace

JRut...you hit it on the head. He panicked, he didn't trust his partner, and then it sounds like he "big timed" him.

Sorry Rich...but, I gotta see this "trainwreck".

How would you search it on YouTube?

[Rich]

It's embedded on the first post of the thread.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's embedded on the first post of the thread.

Thanks Rich..."YouTube" is blocked here at work...so I got on my phone and brought it up.

IMO...you handled that beautifully. I only watched it once. I told myself to watch it and do what I would normally do as if I was the "new trail".

I had a 4 count...your partner was nuts.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Thanks Rich..."YouTube" is blocked here at work...so I got on my phone and brought it up.

IMO...you handled that beautifully. I only watched it once. I told myself to watch it and do what I would normally do as if I was the "new trail".

I had a 4 count...your partner was nuts.

I was between 3 and 4. I used a stopwatch and started it when I thought the ball was at the disposal -- I had 3.5 seconds both times I ran it.

As a friend of mine says, "It is what it is." Hard to believe that was over 2 years ago, though.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I was between 3 and 4. I used a stopwatch and started it when I thought the ball was at the disposal -- I had 3.5 seconds both times I ran it.

As a friend of mine says, "It is what it is." Hard to believe that was over 2 years ago, though.

And have you worked with that particular partner since that incident? If so, how did it go????