Have any of you ever called...

[just another ref]

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new lead, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new trail, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How can you be right by doing that? First of all the rules state that the official's signal is what is the judge. Granted our count should be close, but you have just undermined the entire crew by doing this. You cannot be right in a situation like this. This is not like calling in someone's primary, it is literally taking their call from them in every way. It would be like the lead calling a violation on the FT shooter. Or the Lead calling a backcourt violation on a player touching the division line. At best he was guessing as he has no idea when the official judged the ball being at disposal.

Peace

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why would new L be watching and counting the 5 second count? Who's watching the other 9 players while this is going on?

That being said, there's some situations where you have to leave and die with what your partner calls or doesn't call.

You don't have to watch it to know. If you have clock awareness, and know that a shot went in a 12 seconds, you know that time can't expire before the throw is released. If you get to 0 without a throwin, no matter who has coverage, you've got a big problem and need to deal with it....you're both responsible, not just the new trail. The new trail might take the most heat but the new lead is not without blame.

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're both responsible.

Does the old, "Ant Versus Elephant", metaphor apply here?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

Some people (see the video in the OP) just do a poor job of judging what is an elephant and what isn't.

[Rule11]

Rich,
I can't tell you how terribly impressed I am with your composure in this situation. I have always found your posts to be some of the most reasonable ones made on this site and the video only confirms this.Your partner took this game over and deserves all the credit for the FUBAR situation he caused. Short of hitting him with Chseagle's taser I don't think there is much else you could have done.Thank goodness the team did not hit the last shot....
It is very difficult to tell how agitated you are...you can tell that you do not agree with your "partner" but you are not demonstrative. I thought you handled yourself with class and dignity....I may have been tempted to take all of my partners clothes with me while he was in the shower and let him go out of there naked...kinda the way he left you on the court.

I have been following this board since I started officiating about 6 years ago and I give a lot of thanks to guys like you for helping me understand the game a lot better. This site has certainly helped me rise through the ranks fairly quickly by being prepared for just about any situation from dealing with Coaches (My biggest weakness) to strange case plays.
I feel like I know a lot of you personally (Most of you in a positive way) just by reading this Forum over the past 6 years. The forum allows people to speak their mind on a myriad of subjects and get constructive feedback.
I just wanted to thank you all for contributing to this Forum. Despite some of the inevitable bickering that goes on it is a fantastic tool to developing as a referee. I am looking for the day that this site is turned into a reality show. When I work with some of the less experienced guys that I think have potential I turn them on to this site...not sure if any of them have heeded my advice but I hope they do.
For the record I really miss Mick and his sense of humor.
Jurassic-I know you don't post much anymore but your insight/commentary is the one I respect above all others...even if you are a curmudgeonly old man
If any of you are ever working down in my little corner of CT (I think it is a different corner than Billy Mac) feel free to let me know- would love to come watch.
Thanks again.
Jarod

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

I have no problem calling a foul or violation outside my PCA, if I pause for a second and believe my partner must have been straightlined to miss it. I also have no problem with my partner doing the same, and I make that clear during pre-game.

However, when it comes to throw-ins, if I'm not administering, I'm disengaging from that endline/sideline, and focusing in-bounds. Some things are best to be trusted to your partner.

[TheOracle]

[QUOTE=RichMSN;808102]After the game, I went in the locker room, changed clothes quickly without showering, and left without saying a word. I was as close to the edge as I've ever been before or since.

Tons of respect for you. This is the professional way to deal with this. You cannot change what happened on the court, and you are not going to change your partner's mind or opinion.

I found that when someone does something like this, usually they know, and there is no benefit to discussing it in the locker room after the game. Many times I have had the 3rd guy ask, "Why didn't you say anything?" My response is always, "I didn't have to. We all know what happened, and he knows he screwed it up. No need to pour salt in a wound."

Making your opinion known once is fine, especially if the offender brings it up himself in the locker room after the game. Starting an argument or getting angry for more than a second or two is pointless, especially if you have no real control, and you are clearly correct.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

Nobody here will like this, but the bottom line is, if you are right, you can do anything you want. If you are right, even if you run your partner over, you are still right. Top officials never want to be in those situations, and they are exceptionally rare, but if they have the ability and constitution to make those calls and be 100% correct, that makes them great. Perhaps unpopular for a period of time, but great. The flip side is, the risks in doing so are enormous, and we all beileve in virtually every call we make--until we see the film.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Me neither, and any explanation would likely be an elaborate version of, "I had a brain fart." But as adamant as he seemed, I have to imagine he was pretty sure of himself and felt he had a good reason for it. Reading it would be a sort of anthropological exercise.

Not really. That is so blatantly bad that he cannot recover. It would be like Costas interviewing Sandusky.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by deecee

The only time i had a count out of my primary was in a summer girls tournament with backcourt 10 seconds count. My partner seemed to have a brain fart and by the time I came in and made the 10 second call it probably was about 13-14 seconds. My cue that he didnt have a count, was when i didnt see his visible count, so i picked it up. It was in a crucial part of the game as well.

-1

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

IMO, this isn't a crew call and this board is the only place I have ever heard of doing this - actually this thread is the only place. I cannot honestly count every mistake one of my partners may have made in a particular game because I have my own responsibilities that I'm worried about. In the spirit of teamwork, we all have jobs to do and if someone doesn't do their job we look bad as a whole. But that doesn't mean I'm going to try to call everything or make sure everything is right.

Someone mentioned a crew being suspended for a game last year. Just to show how things go the opposite way, the assignor for the crew that did Xavier/Cincinnati backed that crew up which I think we all agree isn't right. I know one of the officials on that game and I think he may have been involved in the game last year too!

[tomegun]

Years ago (not sure if I ever posted this), I had a bad experience and didn't handle it as well as Rich.

I was working a military tournament on a base that one of my friends assigned. I'm at the L, I'm watching off ball and two players go down. I was watching them the entire time and call the first foul. To my amazement, another official (I don't remember if he was the T or C) comes in and says the player that I thought got fouled committed the foul. He came in telling me all of this and he didn't have a whistle on the play. This was about 12+ years ago so I wasn't the kindler and gentler Tom you see before you. I told him, "Well if you think that is what happened, go report it". I didn't think in a million years, he would go report the foul since he didn't even have a whistle on the play, but to my utter shock he did. To say I was upset is a huge understatement. I told my friend, who assigned the game and was on the sideline, that we were going to have a problem at halftime. Halftime comes and the locker room explodes as soon as we get in there. I told the guy assigning the game that he was going to have to make a decision: either I was going to finish the game or this other guy was going to finish the game. I know I put him in a bad position and it was a decision I had to make for him...I was showering before the second half of that game started. Not my proudest moment and something it took a while for me to live down. Fortunately, this didn't happen during a high school game.

To make the situation worse, the team that (I think) got fouled was from a base I used to be stationed at...all of them were my friends. They were asking me later what happened on that play. Disclaimer: even though they are my friends, they never got a break from me. Not the way I roll at all.

Also (this is great), I was trying to "court" the other official's daughter at the time; she was a cutie. That stopped abruptly after this incident, not my decision. The other official was in our association and his career flamed out shortly after this incident. It had nothing to do with me and everything to do with his (in) ability to call games.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

. . . another official (I don't remember if he was the T or C) comes in and says the player that I thought got fouled committed the foul. . . . I was trying to "court" the other official's daughter at the time; she was a cutie. That stopped abruptly after this incident . . .

Note to all single officials: Good rule of thumb in a case like this is to settle for a blarge, and keep the girl.

[Tio]

WOW! Not something to be proud of....a poor example of trust within a crew. At any time, let alone in a close game with 3 seconds left.