Charge, After Charge, After Charge

[letemplay]

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

[tomegun]

Sounds like a trip to me. And, if you know exactly what happened on the play, as you describe here, I don't think there is anything keeping you from calling it on the defender. I do get the slight feeling that you may want to let this action go to maintain some mythical flow.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

But the purpose of LGP,IMO, is that once a defender gets LGP it entitles him to such movement to stay in front of the offensive player. Sounds like you want to punish a defensive player who is quick and/or intuitive enough to adjust to the offensive player's new path.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace

[letemplay]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;805422]When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace[/QUOTE

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

Again a toe tap has nothing to do with the rule and as long at the defender is in LGP at the time of contact, not sure how you can call it any other way unless you do not have the judgment to know when a defender is in LGP.

And if your suggestion is that at those levels they are calling it the way you suggest, I know at the NCAA level they are getting killed for not calling it the way I suggest on tape. And because of the tape that is being shown, I see more PC fouls being called in the last few years.

Peace

[letemplay]

That makes sense then. I'll try looking at them that way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by letemplay

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

If the defender has (and maintains) LGP, then he doesn't even need a "toe tap" to draw a charge -- one or both feet can be in the air.

And, if he doesn't have LGP, but the "toe tap" gives him both feet on the floor, facing the offensive player before the offensive player leaves the floor and before contact (even by a millisecond), then the defense has established LGP and the proper call is a charge.

[letemplay]

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace

When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.

This is true of course...and visa versa

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying?

Once LGP is established, the defender is permitted to maintain the position if s/he is moving laterally or obliquely. LGP is "lost" if the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the torso of the defender.

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by letemplay

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

...visualize your play. One thing to remember is if the offensive player get his head and shoulders past the defender, the greater responsibility for the contact is then on the defender, so the offensive player, if he can "beat" the defender gains an advantage.

Also, Rut (if I can call him that) is correct: if the official referees the defense, these are easier calls to make.