PC on Shaq

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
It is hard to imagine circumstances where the secondary defender can draw a PC foul without getting set in the offensive player's line of movement first.

Shooter clears out with the off-arm. Easy PC.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Shooter clears out with the off-arm. Easy PC.

Could happen, but the clear-out usually only happens to the on-ball defender. Off-ball, you rarely see this happen without the off-ball defender initiating some contact first, and that will usually be what is called.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Could happen, but the clear-out usually only happens to the on-ball defender.

Not sure why you draw that generalization, Coach. A clear-out is just as likely on a secondary defender, if the primary defender has been left in the dust. Anybody who is in the way is a possible target for a clear-out. Doesn't have to be the primary defender.

By "on-ball defender", I'm assuming you mean primary defender? Any defender who's close enough to be on the receiving end of a clear-out is "on-ball", even if he/she is not the primary defender.

Chuck

[Joe]

"Off-ball, you rarely see this happen..."

Remember, we started talking about Shaq. There are
often second and third defenders helping out and
"getting to the spot" (or not) before one of Shaq's hambones. Indeed, that is exactly the original call in question: Hudson (helping) was bowled over by Shaq.
Shaq may have been leading a bit with his left arm.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Could happen, but the clear-out usually only happens to the on-ball defender. Off-ball, you rarely see this happen without the off-ball defender initiating some contact first, and that will usually be what is called.

[Hawks Coach]

How I am reading this is you had a primary defender, and Shaq drove toward a secondary defender who was in his line of movement and stationed outside the arc. In this and other similar (arc and non-arc) situations, if the defender is moving you will have a block, if the defender is stationary you should have a charge. And you won't normally see a clear out action.

If you are referring to switching defenders as one defender gets beaten, I don't know how the NBA looks at it but I consider the new guy to be the new primary defender if he picks up ball and is moving with the ball handler. The original defender is ancient history. So that's where I was coming from.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
How I am reading this is you had a primary defender, and Shaq drove toward a secondary defender who was in his line of movement and stationed outside the arc. In this and other similar (arc and non-arc) situations, if the defender is moving you will have a block, if the defender is stationary you should have a charge."

The call and situation was the later.

"And you won't normally see a clear out action."

Again, at least with Shaq, I think you do (several times a game).... but it is rarely called. I'm not saying it's an
easy call, but variations on the theme happen every night.







"If you are referring to switching defenders as one defender gets beaten, I don't know how the NBA looks at it but I consider the new guy to be the new primary defender if he picks up ball and is moving with the ball handler. The original defender is ancient history. So that's where I was coming from.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
How I am reading this is you had a primary defender, and Shaq drove toward a secondary defender who was in his line of movement and stationed outside the arc. In this and other similar (arc and non-arc) situations, if the defender is moving you will have a block, if the defender is stationary you should have a charge. And you won't normally see a clear out action.

If you are referring to switching defenders as one defender gets beaten, I don't know how the NBA looks at it but I consider the new guy to be the new primary defender if he picks up ball and is moving with the ball handler. The original defender is ancient history. So that's where I was coming from.

As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender. Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up. Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1. The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows). It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

I would love to see the play again. Anyone else see it?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
How I am reading this is you had a primary defender, and Shaq drove toward a secondary defender. . .

Coach, as I said earlier, I didn't see the play, so I'm not even commenting on Shaq. I was only commenting on your statement that it's hard to imagine how a secondary defender could draw a PC without being stationary. If the secondary defender (or any defender) takes a forearm in the chest, it's a PC. Not that hard to imagine, that's all I was saying.

In this and other similar (arc and non-arc) situations, if the defender is moving you will have a block, if the defender is stationary you should have a charge.

Normally, that's what you will see, but as you know, being stationary is not necessary for drawing the PC. That's the most obvious way to draw it, but not the only way.

In fact, at higher levels, the officials I think are much more concerned with where the contact occured, rather than what the defender's feet are doing. If the contact is square on the defender's torso, it's very likely a PC, even if he is moving. If the defender is standing fairly vertical and gets hit on the chest, then it's almost impossible to see how somebody could say that he didn't get there first.

If you are referring to switching defenders as one defender gets beaten, I consider the new guy to be the new primary defender

Drake or Eli will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that if KG blows by Kobe and then Shaq rotates to pick him up on D, Shaq is still the secondary defender. Shaq is the "help" defense. I don't think that losing your defender means you get a new primary defender, at least for RA purposes. I could be wrong, tho.

Chuck

[Joe]

>As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender.

Right so far.

>Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up.

Shaq's back was to the hoop/paint, he wheeled to his left and into the paint where Hudson (Minn point guard, 2ND defender) had established legal guarding position outside the arc.

>Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1.

Hudson is small....maybe you didn't see him?


>The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows).

You are right, there was little contact with the primary
defender, but Shaq leveled Hudson.... no flop there, Hudson
giving away 200 lbs.


>It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

Yup, that's the one.

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender. Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up. Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1. The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows). It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

I would love to see the play again. Anyone else see it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Joe
>As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender.

Right so far.

>Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up.

Shaq's back was to the hoop/paint, he wheeled to his left and into the paint where Hudson (Minn point guard, 2ND defender) had established legal guarding position outside the arc.

>Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1.

Hudson is small....maybe you didn't see him?


>The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows).

You are right, there was little contact with the primary
defender, but Shaq leveled Hudson.... no flop there, Hudson
giving away 200 lbs.


>It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

Yup, that's the one.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm...now I would really love to see the play again, we saw everything the same except I don't recall Hudson getting squashed, I didn't even see him. (Now you know why I get all the BIG games! )

[BktBallRef]

It must be true! Shaq is the hardest player in the world to officiate! Look how many posts one play created.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It must be true! Shaq is the hardest player in the world to officiate! Look how many posts one play created.

And only 2 of us saw the damn play, but even we can't agree on what we saw!!!

[Joe]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

And only 2 of us saw the damn play, but even we can't agree on what we saw!!!

Ever see the movie Roshoman? Four people see the exact same
thing, but all have very different stories....