Only four players

[zm1283]

Had a GV game the other night that went about as smoothly as a game can go for about 31 minutes....then...

V leads 50-40 and has a throw-in in the backcourt on the endline after a made basket by the H team. The V team gets the ball in, and their player immediately shoots in the wrong basket. H calls a timeout, now down eight. V has the ball again after the timeout (A 60-second timeout) with about 10-12 seconds left in the game. Both teams return to the court, my partner counts and gives me the all good, and V throws the ball in, advances it past the division line, and gets fouled with about four seconds left. At this point, H's coach is going nuts behind me (I was Trail). I turn around and he's flipping out because he only has four players on the court and he is insistent that he would have gotten a T if he sent the fifth player on the court. I tell him that as long as it isn't deceitful and gains an advantage, he could have sent his fifth player onto the court, and that it's up to him to get his team on the court after a timeout.

V shoots their two bonus free throws, H throws the ball in, and the game ends. H's coach tries to plead with me as we leave the court, but I just tell him the same thing again: that he could have sent the last girl on the court. We get in the locker room and he comes by after the game (Still debating whether or not I should have reported this part...I didn't yet because he was calm and wasn't making a scene) and tells us that the first horn for the timeout never went off during the last timeout. (The V team came back on the court before the horn, and the H team did as well, save for the "missing" girl who was standing in front of the bench talking to the coach. That's why we counted five players on the court for them) I tell him that 1) His players and V's players were on the court, so the timeout ended early, hence the reason for no horn, and 2) He could have sent the missing girl into the game without a technical (10.3.2b). His assistant comes and escorts him to the locker room as we tell him we're done talking, and that was the end of it.

I know it's a mess of a story, but would you guys have handled it any differently? Looking back, we shouldn't have even answered the door when he came by the locker room, but he wasn't raising his voice and was calm, so we did. I guess we could have counted players more closely coming out of the timeout, but his fifth player was standing right in front of the bench talking to him and he just wasn't paying attention that the rest of his team and the other team were ready to go. I gave a loud whistle before giving the ball to the thrower, so it isn't like he didn't hear that at the very least.

[tref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I know it's a mess of a story, but would you guys have handled it any differently?


Looking back, we shouldn't have even answered the door when he came by the locker room...

I guess we could have counted players more closely coming out of the timeout...

Looks like you answered your own question.
But ultimately, he has the greater responsibility.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Had a GV game the other night that went about as smoothly as a game can go for about 31 minutes....then...

V leads 50-40 and has a throw-in in the backcourt on the endline after a made basket by the H team. The V team gets the ball in, and their player immediately shoots in the wrong basket. H calls a timeout, now down eight. V has the ball again after the timeout (A 60-second timeout) with about 10-12 seconds left in the game. Both teams return to the court, my partner counts and gives me the all good, and V throws the ball in, advances it past the division line, and gets fouled with about four seconds left. At this point, H's coach is going nuts behind me (I was Trail). I turn around and he's flipping out because he only has four players on the court and he is insistent that he would have gotten a T if he sent the fifth player on the court. I tell him that as long as it isn't deceitful and gains an advantage, he could have sent his fifth player onto the court, and that it's up to him to get his team on the court after a timeout.

V shoots their two bonus free throws, H throws the ball in, and the game ends. H's coach tries to plead with me as we leave the court, but I just tell him the same thing again: that he could have sent the last girl on the court. We get in the locker room and he comes by after the game (Still debating whether or not I should have reported this part...I didn't yet because he was calm and wasn't making a scene) and tells us that the first horn for the timeout never went off during the last timeout. (The V team came back on the court before the horn, and the H team did as well, save for the "missing" girl who was standing in front of the bench talking to the coach. That's why we counted five players on the court for them) I tell him that 1) His players and V's players were on the court, so the timeout ended early, hence the reason for no horn, and 2) He could have sent the missing girl into the game without a technical (10.3.2b). His assistant comes and escorts him to the locker room as we tell him we're done talking, and that was the end of it.

I know it's a mess of a story, but would you guys have handled it any differently? Looking back, we shouldn't have even answered the door when he came by the locker room, but he wasn't raising his voice and was calm, so we did. I guess we could have counted players more closely coming out of the timeout, but his fifth player was standing right in front of the bench talking to him and he just wasn't paying attention that the rest of his team and the other team were ready to go. I gave a loud whistle before giving the ball to the thrower, so it isn't like he didn't hear that at the very least.

If after a time out, the applicable rule in your situation would have been 10-1 Art. 9 ...Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. So by rule, the coach was correct if the fifth player would have just run out onto the floor late. Also, see case play 10.1.9.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Had a GV game the other night that went about as smoothly as a game can go for about 31 minutes....then...

V leads 50-40 and has a throw-in in the backcourt on the endline after a made basket by the H team. The V team gets the ball in, and their player immediately shoots in the wrong basket. H calls a timeout, now down eight. V has the ball again after the timeout (A 60-second timeout) with about 10-12 seconds left in the game. Both teams return to the court, my partner counts and gives me the all good, and V throws the ball in, advances it past the division line, and gets fouled with about four seconds left. At this point, H's coach is going nuts behind me (I was Trail). I turn around and he's flipping out because he only has four players on the court and he is insistent that he would have gotten a T if he sent the fifth player on the court. I tell him that as long as it isn't deceitful and doesn't gain an advantage, he could have sent his fifth player onto the court, and that it's up to him to get his team on the court after a timeout.

V shoots their two bonus free throws, H throws the ball in, and the game ends. H's coach tries to plead with me as we leave the court, but I just tell him the same thing again: that he could have sent the last girl on the court. We get in the locker room and he comes by after the game (Still debating whether or not I should have reported this part...I didn't yet because he was calm and wasn't making a scene) and tells us that the first horn for the timeout never went off during the last timeout. (The V team came back on the court before the horn, and the H team did as well, save for the "missing" girl who was standing in front of the bench talking to the coach. That's why we counted five players on the court for them) I tell him that 1) His players and V's players were on the court, so the timeout ended early, hence the reason for no horn, and 2) He could have sent the missing girl into the game without a technical (10.3.2b). His assistant comes and escorts him to the locker room as we tell him we're done talking, and that was the end of it.

I know it's a mess of a story, but would you guys have handled it any differently? Looking back, we shouldn't have even answered the door when he came by the locker room, but he wasn't raising his voice and was calm, so we did. I guess we could have counted players more closely coming out of the timeout, but his fifth player was standing right in front of the bench talking to him and he just wasn't paying attention that the rest of his team and the other team were ready to go. I gave a loud whistle before giving the ball to the thrower, so it isn't like he didn't hear that at the very least.

A little adjustment to your post. I've never had a coach come to our dressing room at the end of the game. Its almost like the coach wanted a technical???

[Camron Rust]

I've had coaches come ask questions after the game in the manner you described...calm, professional, etc. As long as they remain that way, I've had no problem with it. And when they show up to ask you, you can pretty easily tell whether it is going to be a problem or not. Usually, I don't permit it but few times I entertain the question. Never had it go bad on the few times I've let them ask.

As for the situations, there are two possible rulings in play here....

1. Players returning after a timeout
2. Players being confused after a substitution.

In #1, all players must return together or there is a T when/if the remaining players return during a live ball.

In #2, there is no T as long as the player doesn't return in a clearly deceitful manner.

In this case, it seems that there were no substitutions but a timeout. #1 would apply.

That said, it also seems that the missing player WAS on the court when play resumed. The OP had stated that she was standing inbounds near the bench area and they counted her as a player who had returned.

So, did she really not return at the same time as the others or did she just leave the court after having returned?

In that is the case, we only have to decide if it was for an unauthorized or unsportsmanlike reason and penalize accordingly if so. I'd say that it was clearly NOT unsportsmanlike and I also assert that leaving the court under confusion is not unauthorized. Leaving the court for unauthorized reasons usually involve a purpose....to gain something.

So, in this case, I'd say the return would be legal.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

A little adjustment to your post. I've never had a coach come to our dressing room at the end of the game. Its almost like the coach wanted a technical???

That is what I meant: As long as it doesn't gain an advantage. I worded it badly.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've had coaches come ask questions after the game in the manner you described...calm, professional, etc. As long as they remain that way, I've had no problem with it. And when they show up to ask you, you can pretty easily tell whether it is going to be a problem or not. Usually, I don't permit it but few times I entertain the question. Never had it go bad on the few times I've let them ask.

As for the situations, there are two possible rulings in play here....

1. Players returning after a timeout
2. Players being confused after a substitution.

In #1, all players must return together or there is a T when/if the remaining players return during a live ball.

In #2, there is no T as long as the player doesn't return in a clearly deceitful manner.

In this case, it seems that there were no substitutions but a timeout. #1 would apply.

That said, it also seems that the missing player WAS on the court when play resumed. The OP had stated that she was standing inbounds near the bench area and they counted her as a player who had returned.

So, did she really not return at the same time as the others or did she just leave the court after having returned?

In that is the case, we only have to decide if it was for an unauthorized or unsportsmanlike reason and penalize accordingly if so. I'd say that it was clearly NOT unsportsmanlike and I also assert that leaving the court under confusion is not unauthorized. Leaving the court for unauthorized reasons usually involve a purpose....to gain something.

So, in this case, I'd say the return would be legal.

Yes, I agree that #1 would apply. When the timeout ended and I was about to administer the throw-in, I was opposite the H team bench on the endline. I could not see if the player was standing in bounds or not, nor did I really look that closely since my partner was standing right next to the bench and gave me the go-ahead. My partner described her as "In front of the bench talking to the coach", so that is what I am going off of.

In my opinion, she did return at the same time, it's just that the coach decided to talk to her longer and let her linger around the bench while the rest of them went to their position on the court. I think having a T for not returning at the same time would have been OOO in this situation.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by zm1283

That is what I meant: As long as it doesn't gain an advantage. I worded it badly.

Actually, I thought you did a great job of describing the situation with the exception of the little thing I noticed. The font came out way bigger than I expected. (still learning, just like the rules)

[Adam]

While I know the return would be legal, I also understand why the coach would be hesitant to send her back in during play. Either way, it's still on him, though.

[Rob1968]

Case Book 10.3.2 is the reference for the player to return, late, without penalty, in a substitution situation.
10.1.9 covers the return of the players following a time-out or intermission, and does note a Team Technical.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Case Book 10.3.2 is the reference for the player to return, late, without penalty, in a substitution situation.
10.1.9 covers the return of the players following a time-out or intermission, and does note a Team Technical.

I understand it is a team technical to return late after a timeout, but we judged that she had returned and was lingering around the bench area talking to her coach, hence the reason I wouldn't have called a technical if he had sent her back in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I understand it is a team technical to return late after a timeout, but we judged that she had returned and was lingering around the bench area talking to her coach, hence the reason I wouldn't have called a technical if he had sent her back in.

Right. But the coach wouldn't have been able to predict your thought process on this.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Right. But the coach wouldn't have been able to predict your thought process on this.

True.

I think from talking to him though, he is under the impression that ANY time a player enters the court without reporting, it is a technical.

He brought up a play that happened locally in the playoffs about two years ago. A team returned after a timeout with only four players. The officials put the ball in play and the throw-in was completed. Then the fifth player returns to the court. They called a technical because all players didn't return at the same time. At the time, they were reprimanded by the association (I don't know to what extent) for even starting play with only four players. The story got around the association and everyone assumed they had screwed up. Now that I think about it, it seems they were right though. What else are you supposed to do as an official when they will only put four players on the court?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by zm1283

What else are you supposed to do as an official when they will only put four players on the court?

Don't put the ball in play and tell them they need a fifth player. If they CONTINUE to refuse .... (that will never happen).

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Don't put the ball in play and tell them they need a fifth player. If they CONTINUE to refuse .... (that will never happen).

True. I don't know exactly what was said by the officials to the team involved.