He bobbled. Did he travel?

JeffTheRef · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 10:17am

This is a situation that was described to me by a brother official.

A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball while closely guarded by B1. Under the pressure of B1's defense, A1 pivoting loses balance, and takes several steps. Before lifting the pivot foot, A1 also loses control of the ball (bobbles it). Did A1 travel and why?

Let me make a fool of myself first.

If it is a travel, and I think it is, it is because 'bobbling the ball', once A1 has gained control, is not defined - thus A1 is still in control. Interrupted dribble, that is defined. Bobbling the ball on the catch, that is understood, though I'm not sure where - in the Casebook I would think - it is codified. But just bobbling the ball without their being a foul, without the ball being tapped away, this is not an inference that an Official can properly make. You juggle the ball after you have gotten it in control and you take steps, you traveled.

Yah?

bigwhistle · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 10:26am

Ever hear of the term "fumble"?

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
This is a situation that was described to me by a brother official.

A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball while closely guarded by B1. Under the pressure of B1's defense, A1 pivoting loses balance, and takes several steps. Before lifting the pivot foot, A1 also loses control of the ball (bobbles it). Did A1 travel and why?

Let me make a fool of myself first.

If it is a travel, and I think it is, it is because 'bobbling the ball', once A1 has gained control, is not defined - thus A1 is still in control. Interrupted dribble, that is defined. Bobbling the ball on the catch, that is understood, though I'm not sure where - in the Casebook I would think - it is codified. But just bobbling the ball without their being a foul, without the ball being tapped away, this is not an inference that an Official can properly make. You juggle the ball after you have gotten it in control and you take steps, you traveled.

Yah?

Nah.

NF 4-21
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player' s grasp.

NF 4-43
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

JeffTheRef · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 10:37am

Purely a judgment call? A player can bail out of stumbling in this circumstance by 'fumbling' the ball?

Camron Rust · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 11:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
Purely a judgment call? A player can bail out of stumbling in this circumstance by 'fumbling' the ball?

Fumbling is "accidently" losing control. It's up to the official to determine whether it was accidental or controlled.

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 11:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
Purely a judgment call? A player can bail out of stumbling in this circumstance by 'fumbling' the ball?

Stumbling is not fumbling. If the he stumbles, lifts the pivot foot and puts it back down, it's traveling if he's HOLDING the ball. If he's already lost control of the ball, it's nothing.

And, no, it's not a difficult call to make.

mick · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
Purely a judgment call? A player can bail out of stumbling in this circumstance by 'fumbling' the ball?

Fumbling is "accidently" losing control. It's up to the official to determine whether it was accidental or controlled.

Camron,
I agree. I have no problem 'inferring'.

How's your wheel?
mick

JeffTheRef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 01:39pm

What really happened, I am told, is that the guy did this while unguarded. The idea that one can fumble the ball unprompted is hard to swallow. Have you ever actually seen this happen?

Hawks Coach · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 01:49pm

This isn't the exact same situation, but it is similar.

Tournament we were in three weeks ago. We make a pass upcourt, ball is caught by pinning ball to shoulder/neck with one hand (apparent player control), then whatever control was there is lost and ball is bobbled, couple of steps taken while bobbling ball, then control regained, no more steps taken. Ball never hit floor, so we can't call this a dribble. There were not two steps taken while ball was pinned. Ball is clearly not under control while steps were being taken. Ref called travel, I pleaded no control. Ref agreed that there was no control while the steps were taken, but said control was established first, then lost, so travel was the right call. Thoughts?

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 01:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
This isn't the exact same situation, but it is similar.

Tournament we were in three weeks ago. We make a pass upcourt, ball is caught by pinning ball to shoulder/neck with one hand (apparent player control), then whatever control was there is lost and ball is bobbled, couple of steps taken while bobbling ball, then control regained, no more steps taken. Ball never hit floor, so we can't call this a dribble. There were not two steps taken while ball was pinned. Ball is clearly not under control while steps were being taken. Ref called travel, I pleaded no control. Ref agreed that there was no control while the steps were taken, but said control was established first, then lost, so travel was the right call. Thoughts?

I agree with you, Coach.
That official made one up cuz it seemed like the thing to do when he did it, but we know that ugly isn't always illegal. Otherwise, they wouldn't let me ref.

Dan_ref · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
This isn't the exact same situation, but it is similar.

Tournament we were in three weeks ago. We make a pass upcourt, ball is caught by pinning ball to shoulder/neck with one hand (apparent player control), then whatever control was there is lost and ball is bobbled, couple of steps taken while bobbling ball, then control regained, no more steps taken. Ball never hit floor, so we can't call this a dribble. There were not two steps taken while ball was pinned. Ball is clearly not under control while steps were being taken. Ref called travel, I pleaded no control. Ref agreed that there was no control while the steps were taken, but said control was established first, then lost, so travel was the right call. Thoughts?

Maybe he punched up the wrong "instant response" button - he probably meant to say "no coach, he had control" but got "hey coach, he never had control" instead. Then he had to say something stupid to cover himself.

Anyway, it sounds like a case of it looked too ugly to let pass without a whistle.

canuckrefguy · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Ref agreed that there was no control while the steps were taken, but said control was established first, then lost, so travel was the right call.

YIKES...if you're gonna botch a call, you can at least find a better way to bull**** the coach than contradicting the rules twice in one sentence!

Hawks Coach · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 02:40pm

First, I don't think he was BSing me, because this pair of officials was one of the better I have had this year (PA refs - they've been great every time I have been there!). They were willing to pass on the bobbling travels and the fumble double dribbles that other refs think they need to call. So this one call stood out among other (no) calls they made. We had the same crew for three games in two days, so you know what they are calling and not calling. And I think that this is how he views the rule.

And his response is better than what usually happens, like when I have a player fumble on the pick-up of a dribble and they get called for DD. You ask about a fumble and all you get is the blank stare, as though they really don't know there is a rule on that.

JeffTheRef · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 03:29pm

and, as I think this thread's responses have shown, it is difficult and important. One of the most common errors I see is when a player is called for a travel, say, when falling down trying to control the ball. It all depends on when control is gained.

In a local D2 college game a few years back, a long pass ended up on the catcher's shoulder, and the player managed to balance the ball there while taking a few steps till he had reached up and back to gain control. The ruling was he didn't have control. 'Balancing' the ball on your shoulder is not control . . . although, what would you do if some clown headed the ball in little bumps, soccer-style? Is THAT control?

Nevadaref · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 04:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
This isn't the exact same situation, but it is similar.

Tournament we were in three weeks ago. We make a pass upcourt, ball is caught by pinning ball to shoulder/neck with one hand (apparent player control), then whatever control was there is lost and ball is bobbled, couple of steps taken while bobbling ball, then control regained, no more steps taken. Ball never hit floor, so we can't call this a dribble. There were not two steps taken while ball was pinned. Ball is clearly not under control while steps were being taken. Ref called travel, I pleaded no control. Ref agreed that there was no control while the steps were taken, but said control was established first, then lost, so travel was the right call. Thoughts?

Once again I am simply stunned by your rules knowledge. Be careful, they won't let you coach anymore if you can't fail the rules test!