Invoking the R privilege

JugglingReferee · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2011, 04:53pm

Here's the play:

5:00 left in the 3rd. A1 drives to the hoop and the L has a shooting foul on B#23. The T is 100% positive that the foul is on B#21. (There was only 1 defender near the ball carrier.)

You as the new L for the shots are questioned by the A coach because this would be #21's 4th in a city semi-final game.

You're the T. Do you say anything? If so, what? Would it matter if you, as the T, are also the R?

APG · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2011, 05:27pm

What R privilege is there here? Don't believe this is a 2-3 issue.

If I think my partner has the wrong number, then I'll question him and provide him with information...no matter if I'm the R, U1, or U2.

Adam · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2011, 05:45pm

Dual coverage area? If so, I might approach and offer info. If not, I'm more likely to assume I saw it wrong. Either way, it doesn't matter whether the coach asks.

It also doesn't matter, IMO, whether I'm the R.

srp6977 · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2011, 05:56pm

I'm with Snaq. If I see it is a different player I am coming in regardless of R, U1 or U2. A whisper in the ear telling him what I have and then at that point it is up to him to change it. I'm not "over ruling" him (as if I could).

A smart partner will usually defer and correct the call if they have any doubt at all.

Welpe · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2011, 06:16pm

AMERICAN RULING:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Dual coverage area? If so, I might approach and offer info. If not, I'm more likely to assume I saw it wrong. Either way, it doesn't matter whether the coach asks.

It also doesn't matter, IMO, whether I'm the R.

I agree.

JugglingReferee · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 06:43am

Funny, Welpe.

But you neglected to include the light bulb.

Everyone else in the gym knew that 21 fouled. The crowd (well, half perhaps) voiced their opinion when 23 was reported. The Team A coaching staff knew - and let me know. B#23 looked puzzled. The other players didn't say anything. I didn't know that the L reported 23. But when the coach asked me, I put 2 and 2 together and realized that the booing was from the wrong number, not the clear and obvious foul.

So I approached the calling official. We had a discussion, and he stayed "happy" with his call, despite the multiple points that I brought to him. In fact, during our conference, one fan even said "it was 21"; but that could have easily been missed amongst the plethora of crowd noise.

I don't have my book with me at present, nor PDFs, so I can't look up the exact language. There is a statement that if the two officials disagree, then the Referee shall make the final decision. I was the Umpire in the game, but if I was the Referee, using that privilege ensures that the call is correct.

Scrapper1 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 07:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There is a statement that if the two officials disagree, then the Referee shall make the final decision.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there Tex!! The R doesn't get final say on EVERY decision. I believe the article you're alluding to only applies when the officials can't agree on whether a try near the expiration of time should be scored.

If I'm the R, I can't go in after my partner's travel call and say "I don't agree! Still Team A's ball!"

JugglingReferee · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 08:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there Tex!! The R doesn't get final say on EVERY decision. I believe the article you're alluding to only applies when the officials can't agree on whether a try near the expiration of time should be scored.

Now that you mention it, I believe you are correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I'm the R, I can't go in after my partner's travel call and say "I don't agree! Still Team A's ball!"

But you would say something if the application of his judgement was incorrect. For example, if he gave Team A a throw-in after a travel.

My P judged there to be a foul. But he called it on the wrong person. #23 was on the court, but nowhere near A1. (He did not call an off-ball after habitual motion had started.)

More importantly, my P should have changed his call; his clues being the conference, and all of the boos.

bob jenkins · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 08:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Dual coverage area? If so, I might approach and offer info. If not, I'm more likely to assume I saw it wrong. Either way, it doesn't matter whether the coach asks.

It also doesn't matter, IMO, whether I'm the R.

And, it doesn't matter whether the crowd boos.

It does, apparently, matter that it was a "city semi-final" game, though. At least in Canada. In the USA, we wouldn't worry about it until the County Finals. Rule 12-6.

As with (almost) all calls, all you can do is go in and offer information. If the partner won't change it, that's on him/her.

Adam · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 09:36am

Your p called the foul on 23, the R can't change that. That's part of his judgment.

Raymond · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 09:55am

I'm glad I work with crews where we establish in pre-game that a partner is only offering information that he is 100% certain of and we as a crew will be receptive of such information.

Indianaref · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 10:08am

If after a brief chat with him and he stands firm with B23, make a quick switch with him and let him stand table side to discuss things with the coach.

jdmara · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 10:22am

Offer the information you have (The defender on the ball handler/shooter was 21), no more no less.

-Josh

Adam · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianaref

If after a brief chat with him and he stands firm with B23, make a quick switch with him and let him stand table side to discuss things with the coach.

I don't like this. If he wants to switch, go ahead. If not, you're just starting the bus.

Besides, you've got FTs, so he'll be going opposite table anyway.

If you've offered him info, and he sticks with his call, you have to assume he called something different than you thought. Unless 23 was in the backcourt or something.

jdmara · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2011, 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't like this. If he wants to switch, go ahead. If not, you're just starting the bus.

Besides, you've got FTs, so he'll be going opposite table anyway.

If you've offered him info, and he sticks with his call, you have to assume he called something different than you thought. Unless 23 was in the backcourt or something.

Some states have made the terrible decision to have the calling official stay tableside. I thought about this as well. I would not switch if he's opposite tableside.

-Josh