Another problem with the new backcourt rule?

[k_st8r]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

By definition. It's been that way in NCAA for a few years now.



Again, by definition. The change (although poorly implemented) was desinged ONLY to not have FTs when the "offense" fouls during a throw-in, so it's treated the same as other game situations.



First, the "three points rule" applies only during a dribble, so it's not relevant in your play. Second, this ruling hasn't changed. It has "always" been a BC violation, and still is.

LMAO...well stated, I guess the point I'm making is guys read too much into the rule. You would be AMAZED at how many guys miss it......And I mean good veteran officials

[APG]

Originally Posted by k_st8r

LMAO...well stated, I guess the point I'm making is guys read too much into the rule. You would be AMAZED at how many guys miss it......And I mean good veteran officials

To be fair, the rule could be better written. Wouldn't be surprised if we get some editorial changes to reflect a clearing meaning behind the rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by k_st8r

LMAO...well stated, I guess the point I'm making is guys read too much into the rule. You would be AMAZED at how many guys miss it......And I mean good veteran officials

So when a brand new official pops open the rule book and reads about needing both "player and team control" in the front court in order to have a BC violation, he's reading too much into the rule?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So when a brand new official pops open the rule book and reads about needing both "player and team control" in the front court in order to have a BC violation, he's reading too much into the rule?

Well, at least he's reading the rule book.

[k_st8r]

lol...in that case he/she would not only be reading..but almost have "knowledge" of said rule

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by k_st8r

LMAO...well stated, I guess the point I'm making is guys read too much into the rule. You would be AMAZED at how many guys miss it......And I mean good veteran officials

Actually, the committed wrote the rule with a wording that indicates, as written, that the backcourt violations are affected. They then commented that it shouldn't be and that only the throwin is affected regardless of what the rule actually says. No one is reading too much into the rule....the rule was poorly written.

[Nevadaref]

"The rule change adding team control during a throw in only affects the administration of fouls committed during the throw in. It has no affect on existing frontcourt-backcourt, three seconds, or traveling/dribbling violations."

What is the source of the above quote given by asdf?

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"The rule change adding team control during a throw in only affects the administration of fouls committed during the throw in. It has no affect on existing frontcourt-backcourt, three seconds, or traveling/dribbling violations."

What is the source of the above quote given by asdf?

I am not sure where asdf found that information but I have seen something very close since his/her post.

My State Association published this statement in their mandatory online basketball rules meeting:

The change does not affect any of the following rules:
Three seconds in the lane
Travleing/Dribbling
Backcourt
Alternating-possession throw-in rules

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"The rule change adding team control during a throw in only affects the administration of fouls committed during the throw in. It has no affect on existing frontcourt-backcourt, three seconds, or traveling/dribbling violations."

What is the source of the above quote given by asdf?

I located the source of this language. It appears in the powerpoint presentation distributed by the NFHS this season on the rule changes.

[Welpe]

Just came across this on the NFHS site.

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

Here's the whole document:

NFHS | 2011-12 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

[Adam]

Horribly worded reasoning.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Just came across this on the NFHS site.

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

Here's the whole document:

NFHS | 2011-12 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

Thank you!

Now I have another question or two: A1 has the ball for a sideline throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

Or

A1 has the ball for a sideline throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off B1’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

In both situations, the correct answer is supposedly that we have a backcourt violation on A because once the throw in is completed by A or B touching the ball, and there is team control in the FC because of the throw in, when A gains control in the BC we now have a BC violation. Obvious, but maybe obviously wrong.

If all this is true, why did the committee decide to differentiate between end-line and side-line for this play?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Thank you!

Now I have another question or two: A1 has the ball for a sideline throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

Or

A1 has the ball for a sideline throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off B1’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

In both situations, the correct answer is supposedly that we have a backcourt violation on A because once the throw in is completed by A or B touching the ball, and there is team control in the FC because of the throw in, when A gains control in the BC we now have a BC violation. Obvious, but maybe obviously wrong.

If all this is true, why did the committee decide to differentiate between end-line and side-line for this play?

Not correct. Not a violation in either case. While the "rule" is written in such a way that these would appear to be violations, the commentary released by the NFHS has made it "clear" that these are actually not violations.

Until there is player control inbounds by team A, you can't have a backcourt violation at all.

Effectively, there are 2 team controls....one that starts on the throwin and affects the type of foul and the other that begins with inbounds player control an affects all other rules.

Even if this was not the case, your 2nd situation would still not be a backcourt violation as the last to touch the ball before it went to the backcourt was team B.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Thank you!

... and there is team control in the FC because of the throw in, when A gains control in the BC we now have a BC violation. Obvious, but maybe obviously wrong.

What Camron stated was correct.

Perhaps you are confusing the game situation where Team A is in control in their FC (not a throw in) and a pass is batted away by B1 but, hits A2 before going into the BC...if a Team A member is first to touch the ball in the BC...then you have a BC violation because Team A had "control" before it went into the BC.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Welpe

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.

RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

This is just WRONG! A team may not be in continuous control in the backcourt for 10 seconds. If there is team control during the throw-in, then there is team control as soon as the ball touches the backcourt. Technically (even though most officials don't call it this way), the ten-second count starts at that point. They didn't change 9-9 to say that the 10-second count starts when player and team control is established in the backcourt.

The comment in red shows a fundamental ignorance of the rules, and they even cited the rule! You know, I'm really getting pissed off that the NFHS has put the basketball rules into the hands of people who have seemingly no idea AT ALL what they're doing!