IPAD on the Bench

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Probably, but if they allowed the shot clock to be used, and they could still allow it to be used by state adoption, there would be numerous situations of misapplication and at this time no replay to correct those mistakes as we possibly have at the college levels.

Peace

Agree completely. Definitely would be a competency issue, for tables and officials. I know 90% of the HS officials in my area would screw it up regularly.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Probably, but if they allowed the shot clock to be used, and they could still allow it to be used by state adoption, there would be numerous situations of misapplication and at this time no replay to correct those mistakes as we possibly have at the college levels.

Peace

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Agree completely. Definitely would be a competency issue, for tables and officials. I know 90% of the HS officials in my area would screw it up regularly.

Concerning competency of table operations, if the guidelines in Appendix 4 of the Officials Manual would be followed, there would be less chance of errors happening.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning competency of table operations, if the guidelines in Appendix 4 of the Officials Manual would be followed, there would be less chance of errors happening.

Most HS table personnel don't know there is even such thing as an Official's Manual.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Most HS table personnel don't know there is even such thing as an Official's Manual.

Very true, also more than likely most table personnel do not know about the rule book.

I've noticed over the past couple of years, that I'm the only table personnel that has reference materials present at the table.

One of the recommendations is that the table personnel read http://www.nfhs.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5180 "Instructions to & duties of scorer & timer for basketball games", yet how many actually do read it?

Concerning shot clock operations, there are similar documents available. However the best way to learn is by doing.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Very true, also more than likely most table personnel do not know about the rule book.

I've noticed over the past couple of years, that I'm the only table personnel that has reference materials present at the table.

One of the recommendations is that the table personnel read http://www.nfhs.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5180 "Instructions to & duties of scorer & timer for basketball games", yet how many actually do read it?

Concerning shot clock operations, there are similar documents available. However the best way to learn is by doing.

I worked a college game once where the shot clock operator was replaced b/c of incompetence. There are some nuances to running the shot clock that require a higher level of concentration than the regular game clock.

Based on what I've seen around here I think we'd have quite a few venues where we would have problems every game. Then add on top of that most of the HS officials in my area aren't really in to getting better, studying rules, or working in the off-season; I could see a big mess around here.

[That Don Guy]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Very true, also more than likely most table personnel do not know about the rule book.

I've noticed over the past couple of years, that I'm the only table personnel that has reference materials present at the table.

I always made it a point to carry the rule book and the case book whenever I worked the scorebook at a game. The only problem with it was, there were some officials that thought that I was trying to one-up them, or that I was one of those "parents of one of the players who thought he knew everything just because he shelled out for a rulebook". (Case in point: the visiting team changed one of its starters just before the start of the game, and when I pointed it out to the umpire, his response was, "Well, did both teams have their starting lineups in ten minutes before the start?"; the only reason I didn't respond, "Isn't checking the book at the 10-minute mark to make sure the starters are there your job?", was because I didn't want to risk a technical being called for some strange reason.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by That Don Guy

"Isn't checking the book at the 10-minute mark to make sure the starters are there your job?", was because I didn't want to risk a technical being called for some strange reason.)

We have a lot of responsibilities and one of yours is to know what that is. Obviously there are people here that do not know their place, role or responsibilities and right now it is not the officials in this thread. And you wonder why officials do not trust many of you? There you go.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning competency of table operations, if the guidelines in Appendix 4 of the Officials Manual would be followed, there would be less chance of errors happening.

If they are screwing the shot clock up in college ball (mostly lower level college I am talking bout), you really think some snot nosed kid is going to get this right at the HS level? And there are a lot of directives or literature to make sure those rules are followed and they are often not followed by many that run that clock. I think HS would be a nightmare.

Peace

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If they are screwing the shot clock up in college ball (mostly lower level college I am talking bout), you really think some snot nosed kid is going to get this right at the HS level? And there are a lot of directives or literature to make sure those rules are followed and they are often not followed by many that run that clock. I think HS would be a nightmare.

Peace

As per Appendix 4 in the Official's Manual, page 85:

4.0.2 Selection of Scorer and Timer:
A. Adults: A high school student or one of last year's graduates will have the interest and enthusiasm but may lack poise, impartiality, and judgment.
B. Experience: Choose someone who has had some playing, coaching, or officiating experience.
C. Faculty: If faculty men or women are available for these jobs, they usually do the best work, although it is not a guarantee.
D. Reliable: Choose men or women who can and will be present at every home game. It may be an honor to act as scorer or timer, but it's not an honor that should be passed around with each game.
E. Good Judgment: Above all, choose someone with plenty of poise, good judgment, a sense of impartiality, and one who you are sure will be able to forget the score and concentrate instead on the job.

As the above states, "snot-nosed" kids do not belong at the table.

Concerning shot clock operation, those times I'm doing it, I feel like a bobble head, but that is because I am continually watching the ball. I only average about 2 requested resets a season due to missing something that I should not have. I realize I make mistakes, and I am willing to learn from those mistakes.

Shot clock is not that hard to do, just have to pay attention to the game closely and where the ball is (table wise).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

As the above states, "snot-nosed" kids do not belong at the table.

Again you fail to listen to what people say here.

Not everyone uses that book or even knows it exists. The only people that consistently know it exists are officials that would get the book sent to them through their association or state organization. In my state, we do not even belong to the NF from an officiating point of view so what that book says means nothing to me or us in this state. We have Terms and Conditions that our state must follow and this has nothing to do with the NF and their standards. And things like when officials are to come onto the court and what is expected from game management. Also I am not talking about just varsity games, I am talking about those Saturday Morning games where the JV is playing or some Freshman B game is going on and often the people that run table are high school kids that often are paying more attention to their cell phone and texting than the game or what we are asking them to record. And that is the way it is as we do not tell them who can or who cannot work their table from a hiring point of view. And even if we get some adult, they are often not affiliated directly with the school, but are parents and they often are more worried about little Johnny or little Suzie is doing on the court than paying attention to us. Even with the best pre-games we often get the "Well I have been doing this for XX years and I know what I am doing." But the first situation comes up because they were not paying attention nor had no idea what things they were to keep track of. So please stop telling us what that stupid book says when I bet most states that even use that manual probably never distribute that to their schools for this kinds of duties and instructions.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning shot clock operation, those times I'm doing it, I feel like a bobble head, but that is because I am continually watching the ball. I only average about 2 requested resets a season due to missing something that I should not have. I realize I make mistakes, and I am willing to learn from those mistakes.

And that is two more times than should be requested. Imagine some kid that wants to text his girlfriend or reading emails on their Smartphone than knowing when the clock starts properly.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Shot clock is not that hard to do, just have to pay attention to the game closely and where the ball is (table wise).

It is hard enough that you admitted you had to reset the clock 2 a game and where I know every college game we have at least one clock issue and it involves the shot clock as well. And I learned long time ago how to pay attention to the game clock and how it relates to the shot clock and we still have problems. Sorry, I think HS needs to stay away from this, at least where I live. Too many schools and too many problems now, I do not want to add to that by using something that if incorrect could affect possessions to a team. Not even teams hold the ball and this is not much of an issue anyway.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again you fail to listen to what people say here.

Not everyone uses that book or even knows it exists. The only people that consistently know it exists are officials that would get the book sent to them through their association or state organization. In my state, we do not even belong to the NF from an officiating point of view so what that book says means nothing to me or us in this state. We have Terms and Conditions that our state must follow and this has nothing to do with the NF and their standards. And things like when officials are to come onto the court and what is expected from game management. Also I am not talking about just varsity games, I am talking about those Saturday Morning games where the JV is playing or some Freshman B game is going on and often the people that run table are high school kids that often are paying more attention to their cell phone and texting than the game or what we are asking them to record. And that is the way it is as we do not tell them who can or who cannot work their table from a hiring point of view. And even if we get some adult, they are often not affiliated directly with the school, but are parents and they often are more worried about little Johnny or little Suzie is doing on the court than paying attention to us. Even with the best pre-games we often get the "Well I have been doing this for XX years and I know what I am doing." But the first situation comes up because they were not paying attention nor had no idea what things they were to keep track of. So please stop telling us what that stupid book says when I bet most states that even use that manual probably never distribute that to their schools for this kinds of duties and instructions.



And that is two more times than should be requested. Imagine some kid that wants to text his girlfriend or reading emails on their Smartphone than knowing when the clock starts properly.



It is hard enough that you admitted you had to reset the clock 2 a game and where I know every college game we have at least one clock issue and it involves the shot clock as well. And I learned long time ago how to pay attention to the game clock and how it relates to the shot clock and we still have problems. Sorry, I think HS needs to stay away from this, at least where I live. Too many schools and too many problems now, I do not want to add to that by using something that if incorrect could affect possessions to a team. Not even teams hold the ball and this is not much of an issue anyway.

Peace

To be fair, he said twice a season. To me, that's a pretty damned good job. Running a shot clock isn't easy.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

To be fair, he said twice a season. To me, that's a pretty damned good job. Running a shot clock isn't easy.

Well I am averaging twice a game at the college level to get simple mistakes like resetting the clock on a simply out of bounds or resetting the clock when the ball did not even hit the rim. And this is with partners that are very experience and probably go to more camps than the average official. Like BNR said, I would be terrified with all the HS officials that cannot concentrate hard enough to get the current rules right that are easier to follow.

Peace