Unusual play and question

[tnroundballref]

Cameron, that was my thought when I made the call. I was under the impression that a player must be out of bounds and ready to throw the ball into play to be considered to have the ball "at his disposal".

[Hawks Coach]

and it was in this case. This is a situation where I would make sure A didn't get the FTs on top of the 3 they just scored. A got the ball, they got 3 points instead of the front end of a 1 and 1 - if it is questionable, ball was at disposal and it ain't correctable. Problem solved. Play ball - ball goes to B on baseline, and they can run the baseline.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
and it was in this case. This is a situation where I would make sure A didn't get the FTs on top of the 3 they just scored. A got the ball, they got 3 points instead of the front end of a 1 and 1 - if it is questionable, ball was at disposal and it ain't correctable. Problem solved. Play ball - ball goes to B on baseline, and they can run the baseline.

Yeah, but A still got screwed out of a 1&1, didn't they?

I'm thinking unless B has clearly started the inbounds pass (I'm counting, that is) then we're gonna shoot, & I'm gonna tell coach B to live with it.

[tnroundballref]

Great point Dan ! Just because it doesn't seem "fair" to team B, doesen't mean it's ok to ignore the rule Coach ! I think team A's coach (if he knew the rule) would question why we aren't going to shoot the front end of the bonus (even though they scored the trey), especially if we are in a tight game. And when I have to tell him (Team A's coach)that the ball was at the disposal of team B (even if they grab the ball but are not out of bounds)I think he is gonna flip too !!!!!

[Hawks Coach]

A scored off a possession that they had because the 1 and 1 wasn't shot. Now B has ball in hand, and we have to decide if the best thing is to award the 1 and 1 or to consider ball at disposal of B.

Had you originally known it was 1 and 1, you would have put A at the line and they would have been in a position to get 0-3 points (on average). In my experience, you can miss the front end and B get the rebound on the low end (0 points), or hit the front end, miss the second and get a quick putback on the normal high end (3 points). Granted, many other infinite possibilities exist, but in all the games I have had this year, this is the common range of expected results. If you think about all of your 1 and 1s in the past year, the average points scored is between 1 and 2.

Instead of giving the 1 and 1 (for and average of 1-2 points), you gave possession to A and they got more than what the average team achieves from a 1 and 1 by scoring a 3 point basket. So you are hardly hurting A if you do not grant them the 1 and 1 AFTER they already scored the 3 pointer. But are you violating the rules by doing so?

Even if A knows the correctable error rule, you aren't violating it because clearly you can consider ball to be at disposal as soon as it was picked up - many refs here say that they do. Even if you wouldn't normally consider it to be at disposal, this is a case where a little elastic might be nice. And if you think about the most even resolution for both teams, giving B the ball gives you that relatively fair resolution. And most coaches won't know the intricacies of correctable error, meaning that Team A coach will rarely argue for a 1 and 1 in place of a 3 (which is what most coaches would think the trade-off is). Coach B may be more upset not knowing that the option is giving A the 3 and the FTs.

[tnroundballref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
And if you think about the most even resolution for both teams, giving B the ball gives you that relatively fair resolution.

Coach, here is where you and I disagree. I don't feel my job as an official is to make things even.I will let a coach tell me ONE time what the fouls count is (come on Ref it's 7-2 on the fouls) and I will let him know he is questioning my integrity and that is something I will simply not tolerate from a coach. It is my job to apply the rule(s) fairly to both teams. It was my position that B did in fact get screwed due to scorer not alerting us of the situation, but it was not my place to turn around and screw Team A just to even things up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tnroundballref
And when I have to tell him (Team A's coach)that the ball was at the disposal of team B (even if they grab the ball but are not out of bounds)I think he is gonna flip too !!!!!

So your choice now is to let the coach flip or to call the rule correctly. What are you gonna do?

On top of the rule and casebook citations that I've given so far,you can also take a look at Casebook play 9-2-2SitC. Note that the thrower-in in this case NEVER went OOB. Note that the ruling also says that it WAS at the thrower-in's disposal!!

Guys,you can't make up your own rules to try and be Mr. Niceguy.Remember that if you wanna help out team A in this case,you gotta screw team B to do it!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
A scored off a possession that they had because the 1 and 1 wasn't shot. Now B has ball in hand, and we have to decide if the best thing is to award the 1 and 1 or to consider ball at disposal of B.

Had you originally known it was 1 and 1, you would have put A at the line and they would have been in a position to get 0-3 points (on average). In my experience, you can miss the front end and B get the rebound on the low end (0 points), or hit the front end, miss the second and get a quick putback on the normal high end (3 points). Granted, many other infinite possibilities exist, but in all the games I have had this year, this is the common range of expected results. If you think about all of your 1 and 1s in the past year, the average points scored is between 1 and 2.

Instead of giving the 1 and 1 (for and average of 1-2 points), you gave possession to A and they got more than what the average team achieves from a 1 and 1 by scoring a 3 point basket. So you are hardly hurting A if you do not grant them the 1 and 1 AFTER they already scored the 3 pointer. But are you violating the rules by doing so?

Even if A knows the correctable error rule, you aren't violating it because clearly you can consider ball to be at disposal as soon as it was picked up - many refs here say that they do. Even if you wouldn't normally consider it to be at disposal, this is a case where a little elastic might be nice. And if you think about the most even resolution for both teams, giving B the ball gives you that relatively fair resolution. And most coaches won't know the intricacies of correctable error, meaning that Team A coach will rarely argue for a 1 and 1 in place of a 3 (which is what most coaches would think the trade-off is). Coach B may be more upset not knowing that the option is giving A the 3 and the FTs.

Hey coach, 2.10 is there to tell us what happens when a team does not get what it earned. If B1 has the ball at his disposal then it's too late, but what we're discussing now is exactly how you define "at the disposal". I don't have the luxury to calculate the odds before deciding what to do next. Now, I don't recall if this happened in this play, but if coach A came to the table then not giving him his 1&1 means he loses a timeout. Fair? Finally, (and I've said this before) you never know who's watching you - could be you blow an opportunity by being nice to coach B.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So your choice now is to let the coach flip or to call the rule correctly. What are you gonna do?

On top of the rule and casebook citations that I've given so far,you can also take a look at Casebook play 9-2-2SitC. Note that the thrower-in in this case NEVER went OOB. Note that the ruling also says that it WAS at the thrower-in's disposal!!

Guys,you can't make up your own rules to try and be Mr. Niceguy.Remember that if you wanna help out team A in this case,you gotta screw team B to do it!

At some point the dead ball after a goal becomes a live ball. I believe the casebook helps us determine when that happens. I don't believe it says with certainty the ball is live as B1 grabs it. Camron has already said this twice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

At some point the dead ball after a goal becomes a live ball. I believe the casebook helps us determine when that happens. I don't believe it says with certainty the ball is live as B1 grabs it. Camron has already said this twice. [/B][/QUOTE]Dan,the ball becomes alive as soon as it's at the disposal of the thrower-rule 4-1-2b. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower when it is available to a player after a goal-rule 4-4-7d.If the player grabs the ball,it would be ludicrous to say that it's not at that player's disposal,or available to him.All of the casebook plays that I quoted refer to situations where the ball does NOT go OOB,but is still considered to be at the throwing team's disposal-and thus is LIVE.There is no language in the book,that I know of,that will let you rule otherwise in this particular case.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by tnroundballref

Coach, here is where you and I disagree. I don't feel my job as an official is to make things even.I will let a coach tell me ONE time what the fouls count is (come on Ref it's 7-2 on the fouls) and I will let him know he is questioning my integrity and that is something I will simply not tolerate from a coach. It is my job to apply the rule(s) fairly to both teams. It was my position that B did in fact get screwed due to scorer not alerting us of the situation, but it was not my place to turn around and screw Team A just to even things up.

How in the process of scoring 3 points is A getting screwed? A scored off the possession you erroneously gave them due to poor information from the table, and in the process got about twice what they normally could expect from a 1 and 1 (which they should have gotten). They also ended up with about the max they could reasonably expect from a 1 and 1 - so they are fine. Knowing that A has scored, and having time to think (this is not a bang-bang kind of call), it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that B had possession of the ball and therefore it was at disposal. Yes you can argue whether or not you would normally rule this to be "at disposal," but this isn't the normal situation.

And no, this is not the same as a coach wanting an equal amount of fouls called. Fouls committed are under the control of the team in question. Scorekeeper screw-ups are not. They are an external problem that should be managed with the least impact to both teams, where legally possible. And I have shown you a way to accomplish this in a manner that only the most anal of observers would fault you for doing so.

[tnroundballref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


Knowing that A has scored, and having time to think (this is not a bang-bang kind of call), it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that B had possession of the ball and therefore it was at disposal. [/B]

Coach, I am going to have to ask you to step back into your coaching box.

[Hawks Coach]

but I am going to have to politely decline, trb

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

At some point the dead ball after a goal becomes a live ball. I believe the casebook helps us determine when that happens. I don't believe it says with certainty the ball is live as B1 grabs it. Camron has already said this twice. [/B]

Dan,the ball becomes alive as soon as it's at the disposal of the thrower-rule 4-1-2b. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower when it is available to a player after a goal-rule 4-4-7d.If the player grabs the ball,it would be ludicrous to say that it's not at that player's disposal,or available to him.All of the casebook plays that I quoted refer to situations where the ball does NOT go OOB,but is still considered to be at the throwing team's disposal-and thus is LIVE.There is no language in the book,that I know of,that will let you rule otherwise in this particular case. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, let's see. We agree that the ball becomes alive when it's at the disposal of the team throwing in. However, the 5 second count begins when the ball is at the disposal (NFHS 4.41.3 NCAA 4.64.3). As a practical matter, isn't it ludicrous to start your count as the player grabs the ball after a made FG/FT?

I'll say it again, if I'm not counting the ball is dead.