Unusual play and question

[canuckrefguy]

Agree with JR, don't think this error is correctable.

My interpretation of the rules is that dead ball period (albeit a short one) ends when other team grabs it.

Count the 3, apologize profusely to coach A and resume. Short lecture to cheerleader girl afterwards about importance of double-checking the foul count.

As for all the other stuff, sounds to me like you handled it fine.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

You have a point. In most cases, the ball is not at the disposal of the throwing team until they have the ball OOB for the throwin. However, if the official feels they've had sufficient time to do so but are, for what ever reason, stalling, it should be considered to be at their disposal and the 5 second count started. At that instant, the defense may no longer call timeout and this correctable error would be no longer correctable. [/B][/QUOTE]Camron,one question?

A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball but hasn't taken it out of bounds. A1 calls TO after B1 has grabbed the ball,but before he takes it OOB. Would you grant the TO?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Juulie,taking away the 3 pointer isn't really the issue.The issue is whether you CAN go back and shoot the FT's. By rule,you CAN'T because it is no longer a correctible error after the ball became alive on the throw-in following the dead ball on the made basket.

I agree that it wasn't the question, but just pointing out that since he DID correct the error, he shouldn't have taken away the three. Just so he knows for sure next year, when his partner gets it wrong!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

I agree that it wasn't the question, but just pointing out that since he DID correct the error, he shouldn't have taken away the three. Just so he knows for sure next year, when his partner gets it wrong! [/B][/QUOTE]Now you got me confused.In his original post,he said that he DID award the 3 pointer,as well as correcting the error to shoot the FT.

[silverfox]

In which of the following situations should the correction
be made ?
1. coach calls a time out as soon as the 3 point shot goes
through the net.
No line-up, shoot f.t.'s, no charged T.O. ????????

2. coach yells out " bonus " before the 3 point shot is taken.
Stop the play after the 3 point shot goes in,and make the correction ???????

[BktBallRef]

First, JR is correct. This isn't correctable. If the thrower has the ball, it's at his disposal and it's live. He doesn't even have to have possession of it. If it's available to him, it's at his dispoal. (4--4-7d)

Originally posted by silverfox
In which of the following situations should the correction
be made ?
1. coach calls a time out as soon as the 3 point shot goes
through the net.
No line-up, shoot f.t.'s, no charged T.O. ????????

Award the TO and shoot the FTs afterward.

2. coach yells out " bonus " before the 3 point shot is taken.
Stop the play after the 3 point shot goes in,and make the correction ???????

The coach yelling "Bonus!" doesn't mean a thing. If you stop the game before the ball becomes live, you can correct it. If not, you can't.

[silverfox]

BBRef: Thanks for the reply.

What I am really asking here is : Does the coach need to call a time-out ? Or would you go and check the book after the three point shot if the coach alerted you to the fact that the bonus was missed simply by shouting "bonus" before the shot was taken ?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree that it wasn't the question, but just pointing out that since he DID correct the error, he shouldn't have taken away the three. Just so he knows for sure next year, when his partner gets it wrong! [/B]

Now you got me confused.In his original post,he said that he DID award the 3 pointer,as well as correcting the error to shoot the FT. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, JR, it was me that was confused. I read the original post wrong. At least I got the rule right, though...

[Jay R]

Two comments

1. I am not familiar enough with NF (or NCAA) rules to jump into the fray, however JR's point seems good, plus it gets you off the hook without further punishing Team B. That is easily said after the fact.

2. In FIBA, there is a provision for this specific incidence: Team A gets possession rather than FTs. If Team A scores a field goal on the ensuing possession, the error is no longer correctable.

Jay

[tnroundballref]

Sorry, Yes ended up sticking team B's coach.....but from the sounds of it...I goofed and he had good reason to complain.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by silverfox
BBRef: Thanks for the reply.

What I am really asking here is : Does the coach need to call a time-out ? Or would you go and check the book after the three point shot if the coach alerted you to the fact that the bonus was missed simply by shouting "bonus" before the shot was taken ?

If he goes to the table and requests TO, prior to the second live ball, the correction can be made.

If the table notifies the officials prior to the second live ball, the correction can be made.

[Rodego]

B1 had ball, but before throw in. Sounds like @ the disposal to me. In which case that is not a correctable error. But I'm sure like most cases, "you had to have been there" As for handling the coach, admit the error and get the hell away from him.

[theboys]

I see the "scorekeeper" issue in almost every AAU/YBOA tournament we play in. And, its not necessarily with our team. Host teams use kids because, unlike the adults, they'll hang out at the gym, and they'll do the work for free, or for some token handouts from the concession stand.

Basically, two things refs can do:

1) Referees need to let governing bodies and host teams know the importance of using adults (although they're not always great either) as scorekeepers and scoreboard operators.
2) When working with "inexperienced" scorekeepers, the referees need to stay right on top of the details. At every time out and quarter end, a referee should be designated to go over the score and foul situations for both teams, and ensure the scoreboard and book are in agreement.

[theboys]

I posted this differently, because I didn't want to bury it in my previous post.

Semi-final game yesterday, at OUR tournament. At some point in the game we discover two fouls have been assessed to one of our players who hasn't played. My guess is, the scorekeeper was probably supposed to give the fouls to the person above or below, but, I don't know. The gym was very small, and very loud.

Our coach wanted the fouls removed from the player. Of course, that didn't happen.

BTW, final score was 100-91 (8 min quarters! - we lost).

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You have a point. In most cases, the ball is not at the disposal of the throwing team until they have the ball OOB for the throwin. However, if the official feels they've had sufficient time to do so but are, for what ever reason, stalling, it should be considered to be at their disposal and the 5 second count started. At that instant, the defense may no longer call timeout and this correctable error would be no longer correctable. [/B]

Camron,one question?

A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball but hasn't taken it out of bounds. A1 calls TO after B1 has grabbed the ball,but before he takes it OOB. Would you grant the TO? [/B][/QUOTE]

YES.

If B is not stalling, I start the count when they have the ball, are OOB, and are facing inbounds. That is when I consider them to have it at their disposal. They are in a position from which they can make a legal throwin. If they are not in a location/stance that would reasonably allow them to throw the ball in legally, it is not at their disposal.