Charge on Syracuse steal & dunk

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If this is the call I think it was, I used my replay tv on that one - it was a good call. Duany was just barely late, still sliding a bit to his left after Hinrich left the floor.

I'll say that my call seeing it in live speed on the TV was Player Control, but you guys (Hawks Coach and Canuckrefguy) have the video evidence, so I'll put my trust in you. Guess I missed this one.

[DrakeM]

I've looked at this play on replay as well. If you're talking about "sliding" or "still moving a little bit", you're splitting hairs. I've had many great referees tell me not to be "too pure" on this type of play. I liken this play to one that I struggle with, and that is the play where the defender sees the offensive player coming and starts to fall backwards to "absorb" the contact. If the offensive player STILL GOES THROUGH THE DEFENDERS SPACE, even if the defender is falling backwards at time of contact, call the offensive foul. I still have ahard time with this play.
So what if Duany is "slightly moving"? He is "firming up"!
He took the contact square. I think we as officials tend to see "movement" and think block. Just food for thought.
That having been said, I agree that with 50,000 people in the stands, at least there WAS a whistle.

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 9th, 2003 at 06:15 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Like Nevada, I only saw the replay that they showed at the time. But I also thought PC. The contact was square in the chest, and I didn't think the shooter had gotten off the floor yet. I'll trust the guys who watched it over and over on tape but I tend to side with Drake on that one.

Chuck

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Woodee
This is my position, when the offensive player jumps for a try close to the goal and beats the defense, he/she should have a legal spot on the court to return to and that should be under the basket.

Yes, if the offensive player is in the ari before the defensive player takes the position.

If the defender is there first, the offensive player shouldn't go in the air.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by DrakeM
I've looked at this play on replay as well. If you're talking about "sliding" or "still moving a little bit", you're splitting hairs. I've had many great referees tell me not to be "too pure" on this type of play. I liken this play to one that I struggle with, and that is the play where the defender sees the offensive player coming and starts to fall backwards to "absorb" the contact. If the offensive player STILL GOES THROUGH THE DEFENDERS SPACE, even if the defender is falling backwards at time of contact, call the offensive foul. I still have ahard time with this play.
So what if Duany is "slightly moving"? He is "firming up"!
He took the contact square. I think we as officials tend to see "movement" and think block. Just food for thought.
That having been said, I agree that with 50,000 people in the stands, at least there WAS a whistle.

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 9th, 2003 at 06:15 AM]

At the time Hinrich left the floor, Duany was not in his path. Duany had extended his left foot toward that path just as Hinrich took off. He then he slid his right foot and moved his upper body into Hinrich's path. Bang-bang play, but I thought the refs nailed it.

[DrakeM]

I disagree. I watched the replay again this morning before I made my post just to see for sure. Duany has both feet planted, and Heinrich HAD NOT left the floor.

[Bart Tyson]

For awhile there i thought i needed glasses. I also thought it was a charge. But, I didn't have a problem with the block call. Of course, Please don't think I'm not for Kansas just because I live in Kansas. Of course the defender was under the basket, I think.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Woodee
Mark,

So what is the proper call on a "pass and crash"?

This is my position, when the offensive player jumps for a try close to the goal and beats the defense, he/she should have a legal spot on the court to return to and that should be under the basket.

I played ball for a long time and can't imagine playing defense directly under the goal. I see a knee in the chest or grill and sitting for the rest of the game.

Pass and crash - call it as a charge - not a PC foul, so you'll shoot free throws.

If the offensive player beats the defensive player down the court - you're absolutely right. Once the shooter is airborne, a defender coming in is charged with a block - mainly because this is a very dangerous situation.

If the defender has been set, though, then the dribbler/shooter needs to know that someone is in his path - that's when a PC foul needs to be called.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Uh, Mark please go back are read the third post in this long thread where I wrote: "I'll also note that if Texas had been in the one and one they should have shot free throws, since it would not be a team control foul. I don't think they were at the time, so I believe they got this one right."

I'm not questioning the call - just a hypothetical rules situation.

[Woodee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Pass and crash - call it as a charge - not a PC foul, so you'll shoot free throws.

If the offensive player beats the defensive player down the court - you're absolutely right. Once the shooter is airborne, a defender coming in is charged with a block - mainly because this is a very dangerous situation.

If the defender has been set, though, then the dribbler/shooter needs to know that someone is in his path - that's when a PC foul needs to be called.

Mark,

Please forgive my ignorance, but whats the differnece between a charge and PC? Also, what are the free-throws for?

I'm somewhat familiar with NC2A rules.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Woodee

Mark,

Please forgive my ignorance, but whats the differnece between a charge and PC? Also, what are the free-throws for?

I'm somewhat familiar with NC2A rules.

Player Control foul, under both NCAA and NF rules is any personal foul (uncomplicated by double/multiple, etc. situation) committed by a player who is in control of the ball. (In women's NCAA and NF - it's also a foul by an airborne shooter after he has released the ball.) The dribbler could (technically) set an illegal screen, have a blocking foul, but it would be called player control.

A charge or push is exactly that - when a player pushes into or through another player. In 9 out of 10 cases - it's reported/signalled as a charge. If the dribbler does this, it's player control (i.e., any foul by the player in control of the ball).


As to the free throws - in men's NCAA rules, any foul by the airborne shooter after the release of the ball is no longer a player control foul. In addition, once the ball is released on a try, team control ends, so there is no longer team control. This foul is therefore not a team control foul, so B1 recieves the appropriate number of free throws, if B is in the bonus.

[Woodee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Player Control foul, under both NCAA and NF rules is any personal foul (uncomplicated by double/multiple, etc. situation) committed by a player who is in control of the ball. (In women's NCAA and NF - it's also a foul by an airborne shooter after he has released the ball.) The dribbler could (technically) set an illegal screen, have a blocking foul, but it would be called player control.

A charge or push is exactly that - when a player pushes into or through another player. In 9 out of 10 cases - it's reported/signalled as a charge. If the dribbler does this, it's player control (i.e., any foul by the player in control of the ball).


As to the free throws - in men's NCAA rules, any foul by the airborne shooter after the release of the ball is no longer a player control foul. In addition, once the ball is released on a try, team control ends, so there is no longer team control. This foul is therefore not a team control foul, so B1 recieves the appropriate number of free throws, if B is in the bonus.

One last ?

How does one signal a charge? I don't have my book with me and can't remember a charge signal. Must say I've seen Refs just point in the opposite direction but I don't think thats a proper signal for a charge. I'm not trying to be a PITA, I see opportunity for learning so I'm jumping on it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I'm not questioning the call - just a hypothetical rules situation.

Neither am I, Mark. I'm just saying that I already answered your hypothetical earlier in the thread.

Also you wrote something a bit confusing in the post next to this one.
I'm referring to:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Pass and crash - call it as a charge - not a PC foul, so you'll shoot free throws.

In NFHS free throws would be shot since there is no team control foul. However, in NCAA (both mens and womens) team control would still exist during the pass, so no free throws would be awarded.
Since you are talking with Woodee here, who seems pretty inexperienced, I thought I would clarify that point.
PS Woodee, the signal for a charge is the same as for a push. The fist punch the other way or the hand behind the head both signal player/team control fouls. The first is women's the second the men's mechanic.

[Zebra1]

From 20 rows up in the upper deck. It looked like a charge to me. and didn't look like he was under the basket. I thought it was good D. Of course, they didn't show the replay in the Superdome. Just protecting the officials. Probably a good idea.

[Bart Tyson]

[i] Pass and crash - call it as a charge - not a PC foul, so you'll shoot free throws.[/B]

In NFHS free throws would be shot since there is no team control foul. [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe I missed something. "If" you are saying on a pass and crash, there is no team control, then i think you mean no player control.