Charge on Syracuse steal & dunk - Page 3

BktBallRef · #31 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 07, 2003, 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by hhktwins
i still just want to know how that basket counted. i'd like to know how many times a scored dunk has been accompanied by a player control foul.

Never. It's not a PC foul if the basket is scored. It's just a charging or pushing foul.

DrakeM · #32 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 03:11am

Anyone notice the call in the Title game?
Duany has good defensive position, although close to the basket, Heinrich plows him on the layup, BLOCK called on Duany! Hmmmm........ (17:08 second half)

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 8th, 2003 at 03:23 AM]

Nevadaref · #33 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 03:59am

Yes, I believe this was one example of the philosophy call and not the rules book call.
There were also a few that were ignored.

DrakeM · #34 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 04:32am

I will agree about the "philosophy" call, however this board has had discussion "ad nauseum" (to borrow Chuck's line) about the "right of the defender to any spot on the floor that he obtains first, EVEN if it is directly under the basket!" And how "the top NCAA guys call it the right way"
In light of the play that began this thread, this call is not consistent with the rule.

Let me be the first to say I have kicked many a play in my time. I have seen many plays on tape that I thought initially were good calls, that after tape review, I would change. I'm willing to admit imperfection. Let's afford the "big boys" the same right.

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 8th, 2003 at 04:36 AM]

Bart Tyson · #35 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 08:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
Anyone notice the call in the Title game?
Duany has good defensive position, although close to the basket, Heinrich plows him on the layup, BLOCK called on Duany! Hmmmm........ (17:08 second half)

[Edited by DrakeM on Apr 8th, 2003 at 03:23 AM]

Duany did beat Heinrich to the spot, but not by much time. Coming from the officials view, Duany move over at the last second, he's under the basket, using game mgt. skills, BLOCK.

rainmaker · #36 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 11:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Duany did beat Heinrich to the spot, but not by much time. Coming from the officials view, Duany move over at the last second, he's under the basket, using game mgt. skills, BLOCK.

I haven't looked at the replay yet, but I wondered at the time if he got to the spot before the shooter left the floor. It's something I've noticed in the past, that what looked like a charge didn't fit the definition, because the defender was still sliding or leaning when the shooter's feet left the floor.

Hawks Coach · #37 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 04:45pm

If this is the call I think it was, I used my replay tv on that one - it was a good call. Duany was just barely late, still sliding a bit to his left after Hinrich left the floor.

canuckrefguy · #38 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 05:04pm

Ditto.

Replayed it a couple of times.

Imagine having to make that call in front of 50,000 people.

Bring it on!

Hawks Coach · #39 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 05:15pm

Ain't it great. I am amazed at the number of times I am fooled, as are the announcers, and I see it better by checking the replay. I know that I have heard them criticize calls, recheck the play myself, and I come to a different conclusion just by looking at what happened. Some of it is a rules knowledge issue, but some of it is simply looking at the play again instead of running your mouth.

Mark Dexter · #40 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 06:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Woodee

I still don't understand how someone plays defense under the basket. The offensive player should have a place to come down, which is usually under the basket. I would never teach players to stand under the basket for defense. Suicide!

The "place to come down" is the whole point of putting a player there. Think of it this way - if you have a 'pass and crash,' you don't call a block simply because the defender "shouldn't have been in the way." Being in the way is, technically, the only legal defensive move.

Mark Dexter · #41 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 06:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by hhktwins
i still just want to know how that basket counted. i'd like to know how many times a scored dunk has been accompanied by a player control foul. still seems impossible to me.

A player control foul in men's college basketball only applies to a player actually in control of the ball.

Therefore, if the ball is released on a shot, and the foul is on the way down, the basket counts and we have a push or charge.

Question for the experts - since team control ends on the shot, isn't it possible that we could have a counted basket, foul on the offensive player, and then free throws for the player on defense (if in the bonus)?

ChuckElias · #42 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 07:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
isn't it possible that we could have a counted basket, foul on the offensive player, and then free throws for the player on defense (if in the bonus)?

Yup. I've even done it once. Hated to do it, but it was obviously a charge and the ball was so obviously out of his hand that I had to call it that way.

Chuck

Woodee · #43 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 08:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Originally posted by Woodee

I still don't understand how someone plays defense under the basket. The offensive player should have a place to come down, which is usually under the basket. I would never teach players to stand under the basket for defense. Suicide!

The "place to come down" is the whole point of putting a player there. Think of it this way - if you have a 'pass and crash,' you don't call a block simply because the defender "shouldn't have been in the way." Being in the way is, technically, the only legal defensive move.

Mark,

So what is the proper call on a "pass and crash"?

This is my position, when the offensive player jumps for a try close to the goal and beats the defense, he/she should have a legal spot on the court to return to and that should be under the basket.

I played ball for a long time and can't imagine playing defense directly under the goal. I see a knee in the chest or grill and sitting for the rest of the game.

BktBallRef · #44 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 08, 2003, 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
Anyone notice the call in the Title game?
Duany has good defensive position, although close to the basket, Heinrich plows him on the layup, BLOCK called on Duany! Hmmmm........ (17:08 second half)

I disagree, Drake. I don't believe he established his position until after Heinrich left the floor. That's why it was a block. If you remember, he had position on the inital player, who passed it to Heinrich, who immediately went airborne. Good call IMHO.

Nevadaref · #45 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 01:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

A player control foul in men's college basketball only applies to a player actually in control of the ball.

Therefore, if the ball is released on a shot, and the foul is on the way down, the basket counts and we have a push or charge.

Question for the experts - since team control ends on the shot, isn't it possible that we could have a counted basket, foul on the offensive player, and then free throws for the player on defense (if in the bonus)?

Uh, Mark please go back are read the third post in this long thread where I wrote: "I'll also note that if Texas had been in the one and one they should have shot free throws, since it would not be a team control foul. I don't think they were at the time, so I believe they got this one right."