No Travel, Just Kidding Travel Kas v Arz

[Jay R]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bart Tyson
[B]OK, I guess I stand alone on the board, concerning this play. The C had no business coming that far to call a travel in front of his partner.

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One POE that I have read in the NCAA Officiating Bulletins is that an official should never tell a coach or player that he did not call something because it was not his call. From that point of view, the C saw a travel and chose not to ignore it: he did what his boss told him to do. Personally, I have no problem with the call, bottom line is they got it right.

[Bart Tyson]

[i]

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One POE that I have read in the NCAA Officiating Bulletins is that an official should never tell a coach or player that he did not call something because it was not his call. From that point of view, the C saw a travel and chose not to ignore it: he did what his boss told him to do. Personally, I have no problem with the call, bottom line is they got it right.
[/B]

I don't think this discussion is about what we say to a coach. I do believe, if you were to ask a supervisor; "if my partner misses a obvious travel 6' in front of him and I am 40' to 50' away, do you want me to wait 5 second, after the ball has been passed, blow my whistle, go to my partner and give him info so as to call a travel"? Hummmm I wonder what most supervisors would say. Actually, I don't wonder, I'm confident My supervisors would not reconmend this action.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

I don't think this discussion is about what we say to a coach. I do believe, if you were to ask a supervisor; "if my partner misses a obvious travel 6' in front of him and I am 40' to 50' away, do you want me to wait 5 second, after the ball has been passed, blow my whistle, go to my partner and give him info so as to call a travel"? Hummmm I wonder what most supervisors would say. Actually, I don't wonder, I'm confident My supervisors would not reconmend this action. [/B]

For a travel that would be a judegment call (when was the ball controlled/released relative to the foot movement, etc.) I would agree with you. However, in this case, and ones like it, where everyone (minus one) in the gym saw a blantant, obvious, and unmitigated travel, it needs to be called.

The C was more like 35 ft from the play (not all that different than the T often is in a two man game) while the T was probably about 10 feet.

Plus, the areas are called "primary areas", not "exclusive areas." If any ref knows of an obvious violation and does not call it, they've not done their job. There's a quote that I've heard from an exchange between an NBA coach and official where a similar thing happened and the ref said "It's not my call" to which the coach responded with "Well, who's call is it? The popcorn guy?"

We're a team out there, not three/two individuals.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

I don't think this discussion is about what we say to a coach. I do believe, if you were to ask a supervisor; "if my partner misses a obvious travel 6' in front of him and I am 40' to 50' away, do you want me to wait 5 second, after the ball has been passed, blow my whistle, go to my partner and give him info so as to call a travel"? Hummmm I wonder what most supervisors would say. Actually, I don't wonder, I'm confident My supervisors would not reconmend this action. [/B]

I'm confident mine would say "just get the play right".

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


We're a team out there, not three/two individuals.

We are also suppose to cover our areas too. If you are reaching calling what you feel are "obvious" violations, we might not have the same definition of "obvious." I know my assignors might not have a problem if this was a one time thing, but it better be a one time thing, not an every other trip down the floor thing. Call right or not.

Peace

[sj]

The trail was too close. Certainly less than 10 feet. Probably more like 6-7 feet. From the camera angle from the center's side of the floor, it was clear that both feet came several inches off the floor. It really wasn't even that close to be controversial. The only thing that made it so was that the center came across the floor to make the call a little late. [/B][/QUOTE]


*****Over time you develop some sense of when your partner might need help. You can either see he is blocked out of a call or even, like you say, is maybe too close to the play to get a good look. Or you might be looking at something that your partner is letting go and you realize he is probably blocked from seeing it. Of course you have to be careful not to overstep you bounds but knowing these situations you can catch things that might get overlooked. Maybe thats what happened here. The C saw he might have been to close so he helped. Just an opinion.

[fletch_irwin_m]

THis is what I feel a key issue to officiating.
I think we can all agree, especially if we saw the slow mo replay on TV that it was an obvious travel. SO the C helped make the right call. So let's play What if:
What if we were talking about a foul as opposed to the violation? The first question that would be asked of me would be "Why were you looking at that area?". This play did not take place in a grey court area such as the top of the key or arount the FT line. My question is "What was the official looking there for anyway?" He did not need to signal for a 3 pt attempt, he would echo T. There were players in his area, so he should have watched those. And finally, someone made the point that the play was over when the C made the call.
SO do we commend him for the correct call, or do we grade down for looking out of his area? (When I do it it is called ball watching.) Now, if this was a JrHi/Middle School game and you are working with a newbie, I can see fishing, but at the highest D1 level? That is why I will probably never get to that level!!
Just some more thoughts.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
"Why were you looking at that area?"

Sometimes, this question is so stupid!

When you officiate an area, your vision does not stop at the end of your area. You see through the play and must always be aware of the ball and know where it is. Do you sense this? No. Do you smell the ball? No. Is the ball calling to you? No. You have to see the ball to know where it is!

In this play, it wasn't a palming violation at the division line that the trail passed on. It was an obvious travel. Everyone in the building saw it except for the guy who should have called it. The important thing is to call the obvious and get it right. There was absolutely nothing wrong with this call. If it hadn't been so obviously missed by the T, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Bart Tyson]

I think some of you are missing half the point. The C did not call a travel. He waited till later in the game (just to get the point accross) after the ball was passed and blew the whistle and gave hes partner info to make a violation call.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It was an obvious travel. Everyone in the building saw it except for the guy who should have called it. The important thing is to call the obvious and get it right.

Tony, I said the same thing two days ago. Didn't do much good then, either

[fletch_irwin_m]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Sometimes, this question is so stupid!

When you officiate an area, your vision does not stop at the end of your area. You see through the play and must always be aware of the ball and know where it is. Do you sense this? No. Do you smell the ball? No. Is the ball calling to you? No. You have to see the ball to know where it is!

In this play, it wasn't a palming violation at the division line that the trail passed on. It was an obvious travel. Everyone in the building saw it except for the guy who should have called it. The important thing is to call the obvious and get it right. There was absolutely nothing wrong with this call. If it hadn't been so obviously missed by the T, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Stupid is as stupid does. I think we can all agree that there are different ways to "see" the ball. There is the obvious, staring at the ball. There is the "oops the ball just got turned over and I am L and need to bust down to trail because everyone is running that way", and there is the nefarious periphrial vision (Even though it is spelled wrong.) If I am watching my area, out of the "corner of my eye" i can see the movement, most of the time, out of my area. (Much like the defensive principle of watching a spot where you can see your man and the ball) It is this movement that will tell me when/where I need to go. I am not sure that my vision is good enough to over rule, or make a ruling on a call that I am looking at out of the corner of my eye.
I would never argue that the T missed the call, and that it was a travel. MY only question is how would others have handled it or been evaluated on it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

When you officiate an area, your vision does not stop at the end of your area. You see through the play and must always be aware of the ball and know where it is. Do you sense this? No. Do you smell the ball? No. Is the ball calling to you? No. You have to see the ball to know where it is!

Well, those of us with presence can sense where the ball is...it speaks to us...tells us jokes...it buys us beer after the game...washes our cars on the weekend...it flirts with our wives and tells lies to our bosses, but that is another matter...we have achieved oneness with the basketball.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Needs a better shine on those dogs.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Well, those of us with presence can sense where the ball is...it speaks to us...tells us jokes...it buys us beer after the game...washes our cars on the weekend...it flirts with our wives and tells lies to our bosses, but that is another matter...we have achieved oneness with the basketball.

[/B][/QUOTE]When did ya give up on being a Druid,Dan??

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
we have achieved oneness with the basketball.

Be the ball, Danny.



Be the ball.